BJJ Instructor Dilemma

BACKGROUND:

True names have been disguised

I started training back in 98 with Chris Brennan, already a black belt Chris was only training no-gi and teaching no-gi. I learned no-gi through Chris and learned solid basics.

A year after training with Chris, I relocated states due to work related obligations. In my new home, I hooked up with a Megaton Dias Affiliate.

The Megaton school got me into BJJ with the gi. Now I only train with the gi on. I studied BJJ under this affiliate and after 8 years of training I recieved a brown belt from Megaton himself.

During that time I competed as much as possible and won championships at the blue, purple and currently the brown belt level. I have submitted brown belts in regional competitions and lost by points to other high
level brown belts in Pan-ams and national tournaments. I have also competed in no-gi competitions and won many titles.

Many of the brown belts I have competed against (wins and losses) have received their black belts. I have lost close decisions to black belt in no-gi competition, but never beat one. Megaton has expressed interest in promoting to black belt, but I personally didn't feel ready.

My work situation has changed, and I recently moved back home and started training with Chris again. I continue to train with the gi with any available people. I have just won a brown belt and no-gi competition. Chris and I have been training with the gi, and he expressed interest in promoting me to black belt. Chris, though he hasn't trained with the gi in years is still at a high level with the gi on. He literally mops the mat with me despite not training gi in years.

DILEMMA:

If given the chance to test for black belt who did I chose?

Chris, who is a legit Black Belt hasn't trained for years with the gi on. I can personally train with him everyday and continue learning from a great teacher and competitor. But his gi credentials are little, and
doesn't have any gi black belts.

OR

Open an affiliate under Megaton, whom I still talk to and have a great relationship with. But can only train personally with one or twice a year, during visits and seminars. Keep in mind that I received my blue, purple and brown belt from him. I would have to open my own school and assume the "teacher" position. I most likely will only get to train with my students
who would be white maybe eventually blue belts.

Again, true names and situation have been altered

What should I do?

I would go with the person that you trained the longest under. Explain to the other instructor your situation, and it is the only fair conclusion you can come to. I think as long as you show respect to both your instructors it will work out fine.

I had a similar dilemna when I recieved my blue belt - my first instructor (who moved back to Rio) wanted to promote me, and I didnt feel I was ready. I took 5 years off and started training under a new instructor in a new city, and he gave me my blue belt. I kept in contact with my first instructor and he jokingly said he should have given me my blue belt. Now at 32, I really miss those 5 years I should have trained. (daydreams of brown belt)

I think honesty is the best policy. Explain your situation to both instructors. If they're rational and secure in the loyalty that you've shown them, then they shouldn't have a problem.

My only caution is opening a school. Depending on location it may be competition for Chris which obviously he wouldn't appreciate. It seems fairly certain that you are ready for BB, but have a think about where you want to go with it eg. a)Open a school and start from scratch building a pool of talent to roll with.

b) Get graded and stay with Chris where there are guys at and around your level that may continue to help you improve. He may also like you to teach. This will be good because you won't have the responsibility or hassle of running a club but still get teaching hours.
When you start to teach, you also learn alot yourself about techniques.

Also regarding Chris' skills...his game is probably not reliant on the gi or grips. His understanding of bjj no doubt applies regardless of clothing.

Cam

the concern of mine is....

Should I continue to train with "Chris" where by I have a actual teacher there to help me. Even though he has not kept with the current gi game. He is still very good but never going to get back into the gi mentality.

or

Continue training basically with white and blue belts, and stay with "Meg" who is very knowledgable with the gi and continues to stays current. But I can only train with a coupke times a year.

Keep in mind I am a gi guy...... but dont get much high level training partners with the gi on.

Guys, this is not a question of loyalty or opening a school or even the promotion.

It is...

What situation do you think will enable me to become better BJJer, and continue to progress.

The teacher who is there but less knowledgable in my particular aspect

OR

The teacher who is the most knowledgable but who I cannot readily train with????

If you have free access to both instructors, then I'm struggling to see why it matters?

But, if you're considering things in total isolation, in my opinion, you should go with Megaton, because of his heritage and access to (as you put it) higher level tuitition.

Not all black belts have their "hand held" as they continue their BJJ journey.

-Charles

Charles,

I realize a lot of new black belts end up teaching/training on their own and they do fine.

Not sure if I was clear, but I was training at a affiliate school of "Meg". So I still only saw him a couple times a year. I have progressed to my current level with only visits from my gi instructor. I have basically been training and teaching on my own for the last three years at the affiliate.

I fair very well in competitions, but I am ready to take it to the next level. I want to be the next pan-am champ, I want to be a world champ.

Under what conditions can I do so?

Look at the situation with Andre Galvao, the BJJ Phenom ended up training by himself and his own students. After the lossses to Garcia, he realized he has no more "backing", no one in his corner. His team is his students. So thats why he is now back with Brasa. Galvao realized that while he is one of the best, he still need tutelidge of other high level competitors and students.

I think you should trainh with both and get as good as you can. But defintately explain your situation to both guys

Just a thought, but couldn't you get your BB from Megaton and offer gi
classes at Chris's school? That way you can still train with Chris and train
gi as well, but that's if Chris and Megaton were both cool with it. It sure
wouldn't hurt Chris's school, it may help bring in more prospective
students for him as well.

Like everyone said before, be honest with both instructors, but maybe
something can be worked out. Good luck!

Well...ask yourself which one will further your game the most AND which one would best support you in obtaining your goal (to win the Pan-Ams).

Now I agree with Charles in that it seems now that you're at the level where you don't need more techniques or technical training BUT rather consistent coaching where someone will "tweak" your game (which already have) and "push" you and your game to the next level.

Which instructor has been the most instrumental to your game recently? Which instructor "knows" you and your game better?

It seems that Megaton knows your game better and has invested more time in your recent development. It seems he is more likely to help you because as you say his gi-game is more current BUT more importantly he knows your game more intimately. He is more current with you and your game.

Personally, I would stick to the one who I've been with the longest and who knows my game better. He'll give you better coaching and advice which is fitting to you because he knows your game. Like I said I think now you're at the level where you don't need more techniques BUT rather more tweaking of your game.

Thanks for all the input guys.

I guess its just hard for me to see the whole picture.

It is not as easy to just choose the instructor I have been training the longest with.

When I left "chris's" school and started training with the gi my level was very high. Within a year and a half I was awarded my blue then purple belt, so I alot of my skill was due to my no gi training.

But I must say that training with the gi My gi instructor affirmed my principles of BJJ and I am a better practioner and man because of it. "Meg" showed me to understand what BJJ was, harness the concepts, mechanics and meaning.

I owe them both equally and loyal to both.

What I am uneasy about it if I ever do recieve my black belt. That belt is label and legacy of my instructor forever. If I enter a tournament only one name is recorded, when people refer to you there is no "brennan-megaton" black belt".

People have told me, take the belt from "meg" you got all your belts from him and he has the lineage and gi reputation. BUT, if i train and teach at "chris's" school why would I be recoginized as a "meg" belt. Who knows if i can ever find the time to fly out to "meg's" and train again. I would definitely like to, but there is no certainity.

And then the issue with "chris" while he is a black belt, is he able to give black belts without ridicle from the BJJ community? Since he has no ties with the BJJ community and doesnt train gi under anyone, I dont think he cares what people say. But what about my students, will I be selling them short by not obtaining the right degree to make their status legitimate?

Sorry about the jump from story to story, but has been really bothering me.

Who is chris and meg?

technico,

Your making this more complicated then it really needs to be.

First off, you're not the only person in Bjj who has had more than one instructor and who has had more then one instructor really influence their game.

Believe me when I say lots of Bjj black belts and fighters had many instructors. And alots of Bjj black belt have had their games influenced and shaped by more than one instructor.

Accepting a black belt from either person doesn't neccessarily negate the influence and work the other instructor has put in you. If all your instructors have truly influenced you then that influence will be evident regardless of who ultimately gives your black belt.

And truthfully no one instructor is ever going to really take full credit of your growth and development anyway considering that each seem to have built off of something in you that the other had put in you. In other words each seem to have inherited and built upon the others work.

Also you have to give yourself some credit. Your development, skills and growth isn't all from Megaton or Chris. Alot of it is from you and your own blood, sweat, and tears.

You didn't absorb everything by osmosis. You put in the time and effort. And because of that you grew and developed into the fighter/Bjj player you are.

Take the BB from whichever instructor you have the closest (and strongest) emotional, technical, and career oriented ties to.

Technico,

Ok, I'm a noob here (both at mma.tv and to BJJ, w/4+ months in), so take this for whatever you think it is worth (hopefully it won't be too naive), but to me there are really two issues here.

First, there is the question of who to accept a black belt from. Second, there is the question of who would help you best prepare for a gi run at the Pan-Am and/or World championships.

The first is a real issue. Just go to Roy Harris' web site and read his experience with the Gracies, Machados, and Moriera (whom he is still with, as is Gene Simco). There seems to be a lot of "sibling rivalry" and ego that gets pretty darned bitter (is this more common with Brazilians?) and, if not approached carefully, can result in a complete loss of contact with one or the other.

Unfortunately, IMO, there still isn't enough information here to answer this. However, since you are still so conflicted over this, it seems to me that you see the possibility of a problem?

I should say that I greatly respect your loyalty to your instructors! I'm sure that there are many who wouldn't put as much skull-sweat into the decision.

Personally, I like the suggestion by gubbs. It is possible that "Chris" might appreciate having a gi instructor, even if you are not "his" black belt (and you can still teach no-gi, if not at his level). Especially since he knows your primary interest right now is gi, as opposed to something like Abu Dhabi.

Also, as an "associate" instructor, I don't think that students will be concerned who you have your black belt from, but rather the quality of your instruction and the reputation of the school you teach at. So long as Chris's school's reputation is improving, it might well be a win-win for you and he. Especially since he COULD promote it as a more holistic BJJ approach.

Since both instructors appear to be aware of each other and I am sure they are mindful of the potential problems, broaching the topic with them seems to be the next step. Answering the second issue might answer the question of which instructor should be approached first and which second.

The second question is a separate issue. Who will help you become a good enough gi competitor to become a world champion? From what you have stated, it seems that "Megaton" is the obvious choice... at least right now.

The reason I say "right now" is that he may NOT be the instructor who will be able to take you to the World or even Pan-Am championships. And neither may Chris be that instructor. For that matter, as m.g. noted, you may need the help of a couple different BJJ heritages to achieve your goal.

While I have never competed at the national or world championship level in anything, I have been locally competitive in a few sports (including tournament karate). When I started seriously thinking about moving up to regional or national level competitiveness, I realized that I would have to commit to moving to where the best instructors and competition were rather than hoping local resources would be sufficient. This meant living around my goal (job, location, time dedicated to training, etc.). This may also be the case for you. That is a question only you will be able to answer.

Anyway, it seems like a move back to the Megaton affiliate school might be what is needed. Or even to Megaton's primary school. A question only you can answer.

For me, sponsorship wasn't possible at my level, but with your accomplishments, it may well be. I know that it is possible to get enough sponsorship money to pay for travel, entry fees, training, equipment, and maybe even more, but do not know how to get it, though many of the sponsors here might be able to point you in the right direction. Again, only you can answer whether or not that is a route you want to take.

Well, I hope I have added something constructive to this discussion.

Best regards and good luck!

Scott

you don't need constant instruction to get good, just finetuning

teaching others will help you understand and innovate moves for yourself

your instructor will be more of a fine-tuner, much like Cao Valente is for Terere and Telles.

stay with "Megaton". build your school from scratch. it will be more rewarding.

"you don't need constant instruction to get good, just finetuning."

This is a very true point. It is especially true once Technico considers his current level.

Thanks Guys,
I really appreciate all the input and suggestions. Thank you for taking the time to read my posts and answer.

IMO you are truly in a unique situation. As corny as this may sound. Do what your heart tells you to do. Take other opinions with a grain of salt and do what you feel would be the right thing do.

Megaton - the man is virtually a legend in the BJJ community. One of my favorite players in the game by far.

I dont know Chris, but I do know Megs.He is a class A act all the way around. There are very few black belts or for that matter brown belts. I garantee you get a black belt from him you erned it. Very impresive. Brad Peplow