BJJ v. dirty tactics, legal stuff

Underground BJJ Ground
1

Of course in a real fight you want to avoid getting hurt -- that's your number one priority. But I would think that you also want to avoid hurting the other guy as much as possible (because it's the humane thing and also because you want to avoid legal trouble).

So really you want to get to a position where you can CONTROL the other guy without hurting him. And the position has to be one where he can't hurt you and one where you can maintain the position easily and without much chance of getting surprised by a "dirty" tactic.

So what positions do you want to achieve? Here are my thoughts:

  • knee-on-belly, protecting your groin. A good position to control and avoid getting too close to a headbutt or a groin grab. A good knee-on-belly takes the fight out of the other guy pretty good because of the pressure on his diaphragm and abdomen. (I'm sure you've experienced this in class). You can also just get up and run away really easily.

  • rear bearhug. You need good head position so he can't snap his head back and headbutt. You also need to watch your angle so he can't attack your groin or stomp your feet. I don't think a harness grip ala Marcelo Garcia would be ideal, because there's a chance he could bite your top arm, but if you could get your arm under his chin quick enough,

  • the RNC is king. The only problem is that this is a very scary position for laypersons and I'm not sure how favorably a court (or jury) would see this position. For example, a layperson might see this as a "killing" hold and I could see attempted murder charges arising from this and witnesses who could convincingly testify that you were trying to kill the guy. Even if you were to just hold the guy in place and don't attempt to choke him, it still LOOKS like you're choking him. BIG problem.

-face down back mount with him stretched out. you can control here pretty easily, it's pretty obvious that you're not hurting the guy -- just kinda sitting on him, to a layperson -- and it takes the fight out of the other guy.

2

Knee-on-belly to me seems more prone to groin attacks than mount, or at least just as much.

I think the ideal would probably me twisting arm control from mount that Rickson likes to use, where you have the opponents arm wrapped around his neck. From there he can do very little. You can even prevent him from turning onto his stomach by simply controlling the free arm elbow.

Having back mount on an opponent is good as well, especially if you flatten him out. Not much he can do there.

The final position that I think is very good for holding someone down is the crucifix style hold down from sidemount that Matt Hughes finished BJ Penn with. Though there is a potential for a groin grab by the hand being trapped by your legs.

I always found it weird that the RNC is so frowned upon in the courts when it is probably the most humane way to stop a fight, while punching someone to unconsciousness would give you less of a sentence. But I guess someone who doesn't known how to RNC correct has the potential of collapsing the trachea and causing death, which I think has happened to a criminal being "restrained" by a cop before.

3

Kesa gatame (judo side control).

Knee on belly = potential heart attack or herniated diaphgram/groin in some people.

4

"But I guess someone who doesn't known how to RNC correct has the potential of collapsing the trachea and causing death, which I think has happened to a criminal being "restrained" by a cop before."

It's happened plenty of times, which is why most LEOs don't use the "rear vascular restraint" anymore. (That's LEO terminology for the RNC).

Unfortunately, the public, including judges and potential jurors, get most of their ideas about martial arts and the RNC from popular culture. The RNC only slightly resembles the "neck breaking hold" that you've seen in tons of schwarzzeneger movies. And we all know that it's extremely difficult, if not possible, to break someone's neck that way. But a prosecutor might able that you were trying to "snap the guy's neck." And a jury might believe it.

A more logical way of looking at it is that the RNC has the potential to kill someone, if you hold it long enough. So let's say you're in a streetfight and you slap an RNC on the guy and 5 seconds later, the fight gets broken up. If you get prosecuted, the state could argue that you intended to kill the guy with the RNC and only failed because the fight got broken up. In theory, the state could be correct. Only you know what would have happened had the fight not broken up.

And this is a dangerous situation to be in in court. I can guarantee that there will be plenty of jurors who aren't smart enough, or don't have minds that are open enough, to accept the possibility that you actually WERE NOT trying to kill the guy. They might even be thinking, this guy wouldn't be on trial if he weren't trying to kill the guy. (Although it's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, it's often the other way around. Especially when the defendant is a muscular, dangerous-looking guy with tats who does "MMA," which as you may recall doesn't have the greatest image with the media. I believe they've done stories recently comparing it to "human dog fighting;" various legislatures have tried to outlaw it, etc.

When you're a tatted-up MMA guy who used a potentially dangerous and even potentially life-threatening technique during a fistfight, I would think the jury will most times have an extremely negative image of you and be very prejudiced against you already...So I'm most interested in the legalities of the situation -- what positions can you use to control the guy and also minimize your chance of looking like the bad guy in court?

Well, I'm just rambling now but I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts.

5

egrbvr,

that's interesting. i didn't think about that. maybe if you kept your knee on their stomach, as opposed to higher or lower, you'd be better off?

6

"When you're a tatted-up MMA guy who used a potentially dangerous and even potentially life-threatening technique during a fistfight, I would think the jury will most times have an extremely negative image of you and be very prejudiced against you already..."

...that's why I don't have any tattoos. No one would believe that I'm a submission fighter. ;-)

Who else in BJJ has zero tattooes?

7

My coach, when he was a purple belt, was trying to hold a guy down in a streetfight without hurting him.  He was in 100 kilos, crushing the dude pretty good, and the dude bit him on the shoulder.  So my coach just pounded him.

food for thought.

-R

8

"But I would think that you also want to avoid hurting the other guy as much as possible (because it's the humane thing and also because you want to avoid legal trouble). "

I would think you're basic premise is wrong. When it gets to the point that you have to fight (which should be pretty rare after college) your number one prioroty is to end the threat which means fuck him up.

If you think you can take it easy on a guy because you are trained you are making a big mistake, if they get the opportunity they will do whatever it takes to finsh you, so you better match that intensity. Court should be the last thing on your mind.

9

I agree that for the most part, if you are in a real fight and feel that you can take it easy on someone, then you could have avoided the situation entirely and you are most likely fighting for your ego and not for real self defense.

There a certain situation, however, like working as a bouncer, with the mentally challenged, or in situations where you have loved ones fight, where controlling an opponent without hurting him are useful.

10

If he's worth hitting, he's worth hitting hard.  If he's worth hitting once....he's worth hitting a bunch of times.

good rules to follow.

-R

11

Entry Team is correct. You guys are thinking that a real fight is simply a game. A real fight as Tony Blauer puts it, is the one you cannot avoid. It happens without your consent and it carries very real consequences for winning and losing.

You can win and end up permanently disfigured, crippled or scarred and/or in jail.

You can lose and end up permanently disfigured, crippled or scarred and/or in jail... or dead.

Lots of people have this Roadhouse fantasy that the worst that is going to happen is that you get a little scraped up and have some scars to impress the chicks.

I have been asked about using BJJ on the job. While I have used the mount and the arm wrap and the kimura a few times, if I ever had to use the Guard I would know that I had goofed up big somewhere.

12

Best control position...imo is knee on BACK.

13

"Knee-on-belly to me seems more prone to groin attacks than mount, or at least just as much."

try holding mount on a wood floor or concrete ... not fun or ideal for the knees.

also, suppose that adrenaline is keeping you from feeling the pain of impact trauma in your knees, you are still literally a sitting duck if you are in a scenario where you have to make a quick exit or expect a third party to jump into the fray.

Mount = locked into a position with tunnel vision down and/or forward

KneeRide = you are not locked-in, you have more height/reach to strike, can switch off to a skull-ride for greater control (and eliminate the "exposed groin" shot) you have a better visual periphery and can disengage quicker ...

you can also use the Rickson twisting arm-control ("gift-wrap")from KneeRide - sometimes obtaining it in mount and then quickly dismounting to KneeRide.

14

Great analysis of the knee ride, many of your points definitively didn't come to my mind.

15

Pats0,

if you check out Luis Gutierrez's ISR Matrix (MMA/BJJ tactics from LE) promo-trailers, you'll see some great examples of that and more ...

go to: www.onedragon.com

16

That would be: www. isrmatrix.org

onedragon.com has the ISR-PM clip

Thanks much Christian :)

-Luis

17

anytime, Luis ... i promise i'll get the right web address next time too :)

18

Luis,

Any plans on having an ISR-PM class in CA this year...?

Thanks.

19

Shen,

Right now Portland might be my next west coast stop as far as the ISR-
PM goes. Working on it now.

20

Cool, I would really like to take that.