What are your feeling on Catch's twisting of the hand and arm placement of the Top Double Wristlock (and Double Top Wrist Lock) vs the Judo Keylock that is commonly taught?
Which one to you feel is easier to apply in a tournament setting?
Standing or on the mat?
Arm up or arm down?
If on the ground from the top or the bottom?
Again, arm up or down?
Then I can give an opinion...
On the ground, when you are on your back, either in the guard or bottom of the side control.
You want to compress the forearm to the bicep BEFORE you begin the rotation. Keep pulling his elbow into your chest as you rotate.
I can't figure out what's being described here, does anyone know were I can get a look at a picture of this Catch Keylock.
"Judo keylock Udegarami is also combined with throws."
In Catch Wrestling the Double Wrist Lock is combined with throws as well. To try and have some common ground when we refer to these holds I will try to use the judo/BJJ terminology a bit. Udegarami in judo refers to both the Top wrist lock (bent up, Americana in BJJ) and the Double Wrist Lock (bent down, Kimura in BJJ). For now I will stick with the Double Wrist Lock version.
There are 3 common throws that are done once a standing Double Wrist lock has been obtained. They are similar to a harai goshi, sumi gaeshi and yoko wakare.
"Once the throw is completed, the opponent's head is locked between the legs of the thrower to hold down the opponent, which is a form of pin. Does catch wrestling have this version?"
Yes, Catch wrestling often uses head scissors in conjunction with this particular arm lock.
For the record, during the opening montage in Tony's "Lost art of Hooking" video series Lou thesz can be seen performing a standing double wrist lock into a yoko wakare type throw landing on top of his opponent and scissoring said opponents head as he cranks the arm. It is from a worked match, but it should give people who have ssen the set an idea of what I am talking about.
just my 2 cents
Tony Cecchine's series does show those types of transition moves. And there used to be a Catchwrestling Q&A here run by Tony, but he didn't want to deal with the headaches anymore.
Tony website is www.catchwrestle.com. His tape sets show many transitions and set ups. In particular his new Wrist lock seminar covers some great combos and goes over the top and double wrist lock in great detail.
just my 2 cents
We had such a Q and A and Tony got the same ammount of venom that I have seen, if not more so.
He just got sick of it and walked; I really don't blame him....
...and there are days I want to join him.
In my opinion, the way that Tony does the lock is extremely effective. If you can get the twist (along with the other details of the lock), it really magnifies the power of the submission.
However, the only question was HOW to get into the submission. For example, in the video clip from www.groundfighter.com, Tony is on the side mount and says to simply grab the "thumb pad", twist the arm, and push it down into place for the submission.
I have heard some people complain that catch techniques require a lot of strength. Well, if you follow how he teaches it in the video clip and in these pictures, it takes very little strength. However, believe that the part that those people find that take a lot of strength is the entry. To simply grap someone by the hand, twist the arm, and push it down into place takes a heck of a lot of strength. As a side note, on this videos Tony does show a really nice entry from the mount.
So I don't think the question is which method is easier or better. Heck, I've felt both versions and they all hurt like hell. I think the deciding factor is how you get into the hold.
The easiest way to get this lock in a real fight is to throw the guy with a head and arm into kesa gatame then begin smacking his head. He will move his outside arm in to protect his face;
transition from there into the side mount and the ude garami.
You can use the same plan in sport by choking rather than striking.
This thread gets my vote for archiving....
it's true, it's true!!!
Notice the discussion includes BJJ people,
Catch people, and Judo people and there is no
foolish arguing or self promotion/advertisement
masquetading as fact?
There's a lesson in that somewhere....
...the ultimate goal of this forum!
Good thread. From what I was taught, BJJ got the "americana" from pro wrestlers in America and thus called it the americana. It is the one that is the top wrist lock in catch (the one with the hand pointing towards their own head. I set it up whenever they get lazy with there arms and I can stiff arm it flat and get my grip and go on from there, I use a stiff arm for the reason that a stiff arm is a lot stronger than a bent one, example, think of how much weight on a bench press you can hold straight up, then compare that to how much weight you can hold on the bench with your arms bent to where your holding the weight just a few inches off your chest, so you really aren't muscling this way, it is technique IMO.
I recall that he explained that principle to entry for the mount. Did he explain the same thing for the side mount? I find that on the mount, that type of entry can be effective because you are anchored on top of the guy with your grapevines. However, on the side mount, if both hands are occupied in that type of motion, there seems to be a loss of control when it comes to holding your opponent down and stopping his movement. Your thoughts?
"I too find it harder to keep him held down while going for the keylock, but it's still possible."
Voodoo, if you are doing the move from your knees try sprawling your legs back and stay on your toes, lower your hips. If your already doing that make sure that your hips are parellel to the ground. If he bridges lower your hips. If he tries to pull you into the guard block his leg by tilting your hips.
Another way Tony C. shows to get the Top wrist lock is "Jonesing", a levering gouge if you will, its on his wrist lock seminar video.
I used to be like that too, don't give up trying the Catch way, once you have developed the muscle memory for the grab and twist it will be just as easy.