It still seems like judo throws are proving themselves to be higher percentage moves from the clinch than singles and double legs (from the clinch). Maybe because it's possible to throw from almost all tieups, which doesn't hold for singles and doubles?
Judo throws may require more study, but whose problem is that?
Footsweeeeeeps...
I think shots still work just fine in MMA, it's just that they need to evolve. Recently we see fighters shooting from the outside, and while that used to work, everyone is starting to develop really good sprawls to defend the outside shot. However, a good level change while your opponent is coming in to strike, or off of your own striking combos is still a very effective takedown.
Watch the Melendez fight from the PRIDE NYE event. He changed his level SO fucken well in that fight. He didn't always get the takedown because sometimes they were just too close to the ropes, but he got inside on his opponent every time.
IMO, that is why Tito failed in his takedown attempts against Chuck. You simply cannot shoot on Chuck without setting it up really well first.
I think this just proves that MMA is still evolving. I see that as a good thing.
Good thread.
I was amazed at how far Tito was trying to shoot from. I guess he was trying to avoid chuck's hands, but even so he had no hope of getting them from that far away.
Shoots in MMA are failing cause, for some reason, people have forgotten how to set them up with strikes. Everyone is just shooting from the outside as opposed to throwing punches then shooting behind them.
Most guys are either shooting or striking but never doing both together.
ttt
"yoshida's throw on thompson and nakamura's harai on randleman are the 2 best judo throws i've seen in mma so far."
You must have missed Suleov's uchimata directly into the mount on Baroni.
Or Sakurai's Hiza Guruma/Sasae Tsuri Komi Ashi (can't remember which it was) on ...shit can't remember who...but hell look at any of Sakurai's old fights and he tosses guys all over the ring.
willus is correct.
You can not shoot in on a guy straight up and expect good results if he is just standing there waiting on you to do something. Your best bet is waiting for him to commit to a punch and shooting underneath.
Same with a tie-up. You can't just Frankenstein your way in and hope you grab something. You need to set it up with a punch or two, make your opponent bring his hands up to defend, then finish closing the distance for the clinch.
There is a situation for every takedown. You just have to set up the takedown every time. Free shooting from a distance is a terrible gameplan, IMO.
I was just thinking about why Couture couldn't just clinch with Chuck in their last fight and take him down, instead of shooting from the outside, since we're talking about the clinch being such a good place/setup for takedowns/throws.
Then I thought that perhaps it's because Couture uses Greco takedowns and not judo, so he won't use his legs nearly as much to trip or throw.
Geez, I might becoming a judo troll, but believe me, it's not on purpose :) It's just what I'm thinking these days.
Great Topic and responses.
Thank you
"Then I thought that perhaps it's because Couture uses Greco takedowns and not judo, so he won't use his legs nearly as much to trip or throw."
Couture has some of the best ashi-waza I've seen in MMA. He's taken down Randleman, Ricco Rodriguez, and Josh Barnett with highlight reel leg sweeps.
I remember Fedor v Nog 3 being a wonderful display of striking to takedown transitions. Most of Fedors fights actually. Vintage Randy as well.
The lack of drive is also plaguing the success of the far out shot. many guys are getting stuffed and just instantly giving up. Titos shots looked like he was expecting to get stuffed
ji32, judo has a large variety of supplexes, called ura-nage. many variations. they are allowed and are performed alot.
If sprawling is a counter move against doubles and singles, what are guys like Chuck Liddell using as counter moves against guys simply wanting to clinch them?
In Couture's and Liddell's last fight, it seemed like Randy either couldn't clinch with Chuck or that he wanted to shoot a single or a double from the outside range.
You can learn to defend against judo throws as well ... you only have to watch olympic judo to see that. Successful throws in high level judo are as rare as successful shots in high level wrestling.
But both shots and throws work well against people who haven't seen them. As judo throws become part of the standard arsenal, people will learn to defend against them, just like they do against everything else.
Wrestling or judo, either is good. The main advantage judo has, for folks no longer in school, is that there are good clubs you can go to once you're out of school ... it's hard to find a good non-school based wrestling club.
CounterStrikeKO:
Tito has no lack of clinch throws...infact, that was his bread and butter. Remember tito v. evan tanner...KO via takedown. Tito's big move is clinch then front suplex via double under or bodylock. His problem v. chuck was shooting from the outside because he couldnt effectivly clinch as chuck has good footwork and is a very good counter puncher, especially when back-pedaling.
Secondly, the problem with your hughes v. GSP analysis is very similar. GSP is very quick on his feet and can out punch hughes. Secondly, GSP may very well be stronger then hughes, and he has signifigant wrestling abilities himself.
I think, if anything, if tito and hughes want to beat chuck and GSP respectivly, its not wrestling or judo they need, its better striking.
"It also seems that the judokas can throw from ANY tieup EXCEPT the Muay Thai double neck tie."
Make no mistake they can TD/trip from that position too, you dont see too many good Judo guys get into trouble in that position at all.