Honestly I think shooting for doubles and singles is overused and thus easily defended/countered. Far too many fighters rely on them to specifically. They are used gratuitously without proper set-ups. Fighters like Liddel capitalize on this.
Its not that a shot is not good, but guys shoot from waaay too far out. This used to work because no one trained with good wrestlers. I never wrestled but trained with some good ones, and they didnt shoot until they could touch you with their hands, and alot of em prefered to tie up a tad with their hands before they shot anyway.
That 1-2 feet of difference is HUGE in defending a double and single.
Agreed. Tito should have tried to shoot off of a punch exchange. The problem was that whenever he landed a decent punch on Chuck, he suddenly fancied himself the second coming of Ali and started to trade, which is a bad idea when your opponent hits 5x harder than you do and has a granite chin.
Nakamura would get his face beat in by Chuck aswell. Its not that clinch or shot is superior. Its the fact that regardless you have to get in range with a man who could KO you with either hand while backpedaling in addition to being an awesome wrestler
Rashad looks to have awesome wrestling and setups so far. But he has never been hit the way Chuck would hit him
Like Mike Tyson once said. "Everyone has a gameplan until they get hit"
Sorry for busting out the Japanese terms. Sasai... and Hiza Guruma are leg tech from the clinch that Sakurai has done.
I wasn't refering to his head clinch thing...that thing is sweet when he pulls it off but disasterous when he doesn't.
Footwork is the key to staying out of the clinch.
"Plus I've heard that the suplex is illegal in Judo."
Suplexes are very legal in judo. It is called uranage.
Nice thread you started jonpall,
1) With wrestling (and I presume judo but do not have any expertise in that art) as with the striking arts, it is crucial to understand that range dictates, to a very large degree, the type of attack. In (freestyle or collegiate) wrestling, even the "outside" or "long" range is shorter than "medium" striking range (particularly if you include kicking) in MMA. I think a lot of wrestlers give this notion insufficient credence and tend to shoot from way too far outside as Ji32, I believe it was, pointed out.
2) In addition to the distance, stances are usually much more upright in MMA which changes the mechanics of shots particularly from further out; again, I think many wrestler types have not sufficiently addapted their technique of shooting to this.
3) Most wrestlers lack effective set-ups in the MMA arena owing to weak striking skills. Set-ups in MMA, from the distances most frequently encountered between two fighters (before any cutting the distance for clinch) necessitate not simply good striking skills but the ability to appropriately maintain your posture and position to quickly take advantage of an opening and then attack. Again, I think most wrestlers, owing to weaker striking skills, tend to abandon good posture and position when they get into striking range or begin the process of exchanging strikes. One issue is striking skills, the other involves being able to transition from striking to shooting or clinching (and visa-versa for that matter). As an aside, I have been very impressed with Rodney King's Crazy Monkey style of boxing. For me at least, the structure (including posture) of that system seems to be the most compatable with transitioning back and forth from striking to grappling attacks and defenses.
4) Defense against takedowns (especially leg attacks) is easier and quicker to learn than the offensive manuevers. Strikers, it seems to me, have simply (and wisely) spent their training time emphasizing defense so they don't get taken down so they can do their striking thing just like I train to avoid getting clocked so I can do my wrestling/submission thing. A striker with some takedown defense skills is in rather good shape against a wrestler with poor or modest striking set-up skills.
5) While when learning you have to start from somewhere and your range of techniques, tactics, and strategies will hardly be complete, ultimately, you have to develop an integrated system of attacking (including set-ups appropriate to the MMA arena) and defending. In my view, that involves (and presuming competent striking skills for set-ups) A) "attacks" from the "way outside" range which is outside of striking range and does not involve attacks at all but closing the distance in preparation for striking set-ups. I think this is where wrestlers feel most awkward. (IMO, shots outside of striking range, presuming your opponent has a modicum of takedown defense training is simply foolish. I don't say "never" too often but...) B) attacks from the "outside" range which I would define at within striking range. While in the range of "B," it is crucial to understand and distinguish when it is most appropriate to a) attack the legs (ALWAYS "high" attacks with single legs (never to the knees) and generally high attacks (again avoiding going to your knees) with the double leg) and which one(s) to attack and b) when to attack the body such as clinch to set up for throws, trips, or footsweeps. C) In the context of both leg attacks and clinch, it is crucial to have competence in recognizing and securing your opponent's head in a front headlock/head-and-arm. Just as with striking and utilizing low and high strikes to help prepare the other, this is very important with takedown attacks. Newbies tend to be oblivious to this notion and even many experienced wrestlers, from what I have observed, are poorly proficient here. Simply having "good (leg) shots" is not going to cut it anymore. MMA has evolved way past what used to be easily accomplished in wrestling, or BJJ for that matter, by virtue of opponents simply being poorly familiar with a particular attack.
Rich
cont...
6) With regard to throwing, I have been out of wrestling competition for many years and I understand that freestyle rules have evolved to where throwing has little place in current overall match strategy. This is unfortunate. I can remember a lot of great freestyle throwers in the 70's and 80's.
My throwing mentor while I was at Penn State was Hachiro Oishi, a multi-time Japanese national champion in both judo and greco roman wrestling. One of the things he used to emphasize is the notion that throws are not simply "upper body" moves; they are total body moves. As with leg attacks, throwing attacks are integrated and there is an ebb and flow between "close range" (i.e., I can easily touch my opponent such as with a collar tie) and clinch range in terms of the type of throw, trip, or foot sweep. Body locks, trips, footsweeps, and backstepping type throws blend into each other from good movement and the clinch (pummeling we called it back then). However, throws are NOT what is most fundamental (similar to leg attacks); rather proficiency in the clinch and pummeling is king. In wrestling, that is what makes it more difficult for your opponent to initiate an attack on you and allows you position to favorably attack him. Also, throwing techniques are some of the most difficult to master with regard to percentage/consistency in scoring (no small issue) so controlling the clinch and preventing your opponent from throwing you (or otherwise attacking) is an important first investment in training. Too much of wrestling attacking (throws, but particularly leg shots) in MMA is "forced" inappropriately.
7) The older I get, the more I come to believe that establishing and maintaining initial position (regardless of range) so that you are not easily scored upon is most important; if you don't get scored upon, you won't lose. That is not to say offense is not important--it is very important-- but first things first (again, IMO). That may not make for the most excitement but as I get older efficiency looks increasingly attractive. I think that the wrestling thing in MMA has lost sight of this. Additionally, wrestling in MMA is not wrestling in wrestling. If wrestlers do not immerse themselves in the striking and submission games, adapt their techniques, tactics, and strategies to this very different arena, their wrestling--what they do best--will become passe and generally ineffective.
Rich
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Richard Salamone makes a great point regarding wrestling.
I can make a similar point regarding judo. A super key element in judo is GRIPS (pummeling in wrestling).
If you have no grip, you can have the best throw mechanics, you will still get thrown, even by a person who has 1 throw only.
Gripping is the absolute key to winning and is the component least talked about. It makes the difference between great and average players.
Also, as richard pointed out, throw mechanics + grips are easily the hardest part of grappling.
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for later
Hi SidRon,
I am not sure how to do it myself but if you can get into the archives (I believe it was in the wrestling forum) there is a detailed post I did some time ago on the double leg takedown, including a couple of variations without going to your knees which is more suitable for MMA.
Good luck.
Rich
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yeah, why didnt Tito follow through on the shot? his wrestling looked weak...
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TiTTy for later!