I read in the "Newaza Philosophy" thread about closed guard in judo. At my last judo class a week ago, one black belt said that you can't "scissors" someone in judo, i.e. cross the ankles to lock on them. A couple of brown belts were rolling, and one of them essentially put the other in closed guard. The black belt told me that in competition, he (bottom guy using the closed guard) would be warned, then penalized, for using it. He said you could triangle, but not cross ankles.
Is this true? If so, what's the talk about closed guard for? If not, what was this guy talking about? He's a legit black belt and older than me (maybe mid-50s), so I assume he knows judo rules.
I use close guard all the time.
"Sissors" isn't Closed Guard.
Sissors is a submission attempt, basically squeezing the shite out of the opponent specifically aiming around the ribs,is illegal.
You can cross your ankles to hold or control, you just can't do what is called "Dojime" in Judo, which is a submission.
Your black belt is a bit out of date. There are no warnings given in Judo comps now. You either get a penalty or you don't.
Ben R.
I will usually pull someone into my closed guard, get my grips on their sleeves or collar than open my guard to start working.
there is nothing illegal about a closed guard.
Dojime is a trunk or body scissors. You wrap your legs around them as in closed guard, cross your ankles, and stretch out your legs, squeezing their rib cage. Depending on their pain tolerance and exactly where you apply pressure, it is a submission that is illegal in Judo. If you legs are long enough, you can apply a sankaku (triangle), which has the same effect and is also illegal.
Referees look for the guy on bottom to straighten his legs as a sign tha dojime is being applied.
Ben R.
i have seen some people figure- 4 the opponents waste with there legs (while haveing the back)not in comp. but in practice,is that illeagal?
You can use sankaku (figure 4) that way in Judo, but you can't apply too much pressure. It's hard not to put on too much pressure that way, depending on how long your legs are relative to the size of the trunk of the guy you are working with.
I'd advise against it, as it tends to immobilize you. In Judo contests you have to keep making progress/moving on the ground, and locking in a figure 4 slows things down quite a bit.
Ben R.
Toe, I'll do that to keep the read mount since I know that in judo they cannot attempt foot locks.
Ben, so you're saying that you can't use a fig-4/triangle for submission?
you CAN triangle.. you just cannot squeeze the triangle in a stretched-out direction-- thats the same thing as dojime.
more or less-- its this simple.. you CAN triangle.. its called sangakyu jime. you need the head and arm in order to do it, without BOTH parts you will be penalized.
you CANNOT wrap your legs in a closed guard and squeeze your opponent's midsection in order to stop his ribs from expanding or gain a submission. you can cross your ankles, that isnt a problem, just dont squeeze on the fella.
there are no "warning" penalties in judo. at all. the ref will never talk to you-- he will just penalize you. it is your responsibility to know the rules, not the refs to give you a break on them. its good that you asked. bring any other questions you have to us and we will do out best to help you.
"Ben, so you're saying that you can't use a fig-4/triangle for submission? "
No, you just can't use it for the specific submission known in Judo as "Dojime", meaning "trunk strangle", aka body scissors.
You can use triangle for chokes and armbars in Judo no problem.
Ben R.