Hey guys,
I've been studying BJJ the past two years and have recently begun to study some Judo and wrestling. I spar a lot with my coach who uses a certain grip which I have found absolutely horrible to deal with. Its a tall mans grip (he is 6/3, I'm 5/10) and he grabs around my shoulder blade, behind my lapel. Its the same grip Roger Gracie uses, here is a video for reference-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIk8XckFH3c&feature=player_embedded
I have found that once this grip is on theres nothing much I can do to break it. From there I have to defend by putting my head under his face and maintaining my base while looking for a counter throw of some sort.
The only time I have been able to score in stand up is when I do not let him get that grip. From there I have found he is open to body lock takedowns when his arm is extended, I control it and come in. These are mroe wrestling style, I don't know the name of it.
At the same time, they are very risky to use because if he doe sget that grip and I go for a body lock throw I am open to a huge uchi mata (I think that is it). I've taken them, and they are really nasty when I am driving in and working the body lock.
The basic answer is to learn more Judo. So, I'm really going to start studying it. But, if anyone could recommend some tips about countering this grip set or a throw to work on against someone much taller who favors this gripset it would be appreciated.
Jeon Ki-Young has an instructional on how to deal with this and many other common grips.
You must stop the power grip at all costs. use both your hands to prevent and then control the sleeve of the hand trying to grab your collar or power grip in your case. once you've stopped this hand, get your collar grip.
Their will be a Judo/Sambo Seminar about russian grips
and judo grips coming in august.It's in st,petersburg.fl
I'm going to check it out.I need work on my sambo and judo
Throw's. Here's the number#727-458-0638 the guy is name justin keen he owns a Kettlebell gym their.He's hosting the
Seminar.Might can with the grips.
Weinstein, thank you. I'll look for that instructional.
Sambo, thanks. I would definitely go, but I'm in NYC.
I actually am fortunate, we have a guy who used to be on the Israeli national team (I think), and he seems really well versed in all tehse power grips. I'm going to ask him.
Bull_in_chinashop,
Thank you. I think I corresponded with you on ebudo years ago when I started dabbling in grappling. You told me to control the arms when someone tried to pass my guard, I remember that. My name there was "guts".
I find not letting him get that grip is best for me as well. I really defend it, and it throws him off. I haven't been using two hands though, I'll start with that. Its such a dominating grip. I watched Roger in the 2008 Mundials own everyone with this grip. Even Galvao who is usually so explosive could do nothing when this grip was on him.
Try grabbing his gi in the armpit area with your arm on the same side as he gets this over the shoulder grip. Don't wait until be pulls you in and you are bent over. Grab as much gi in your hand as possible and grip it tight. This should prevent him from pulling you in. This is what our instructor teaches. And yes Roger is a master gripper when compared to BJJ players.
I forgot to add you can then use seionage to throw this taller player by pulling him with your under armnpit grip and throwing him to the side of his over the shoulder grip.
Awesome info, thank you.
If he gets that grip, you must post the shoulder (basically a straight arm) on that side. Make sure you grip his go too. If you defend by taking your hand off his gi, this can be disastrous.
Jimmy Pedro has an awesome dvd out about gripping. It's worth a viewing.
You can also go after the lapel on the side of the arm he has the grip with, take the inside grip and drive his lapel into his face, whilst fighting off his attempt at getting the sleeve grip.
You know what, advice also varies on whether you are a lefty or righty.
OsotoGary - If he gets that grip, you must post the shoulder (basically a straight arm) on that side.too late imho.. Break his power grip before moving on. (2 on 1, zipper slide, etc..)
I would only post on his shoulder if he was deliberately keeping his hand back and trying to be evasive with it.
The Jimmy Pedro dvd is great. pretty much exactly what I'm saying but many many more details.
a lefty vs right grip problems are much simpler.
some good advice, some very bad advice.
you dont use a throw to counter a grip! they are apples to oranges. it is like tying to solve algebra with social studies. It might work if the other guy isnt very good, but usually it just gets you creamed. anybody who suggests you try a throw to counter/stop a grip is a tool and should never be listened to.
you cant learn a throw to stop a grip, in this way of thinking you'd have to have a different throw for every grip you encounter!!! that's impossible considering that the very best Judoka in the world are truly talented with a handful of throws at best, and some of the very top Judoka were really spectacular with only 1 or 2.
there are lots of ways to stop a grip, but it is a more complex question than what we know here. these are the things i need to know to answer you honestly:
1. What side are you? What side is he?
2. How do you prefer to stand? How does he?
3. How do you prefer to move? How does he?
4. Do you feel physically comfortable with him in terms of strength? speed?
5. Is it really the grip that is bothering you or the throw?
OsotoGary, thank you very much. Interesting stuff I will try.
I'm getting the Pedro dvd, thank you, Bull.
1. What side are you? What side is he?
I'm using my right hand to grab his left lapel, he is doing the same right hand dominat grip (just he grabs behind my lapel on my back).
2. How do you prefer to stand? How does he?
I usually stand pretty upright, but when contact/grips are made I turn it much more into a wrestling style clinch stance with my head pushing against his temple or underneath his chin. I try and keep a good base and not do that poor bent over stance I see most BJJ guys do, but a more classic Judo style stance. My recent wrestling training has made it a little more crouched.
He stands very upright, just like Roger Gracie.
3. How do you prefer to move? How does he?
I move around a bit, but pretty much engage quickly. I don't tend to move my feet all that fast most of the time, but will speed it up when I feel like there is going to be action. I can move pretty fast when I want to. He is a little more plodding then me most of the time, but can turn the speed up fast. I've noticed he does this when he can't get the throw and I manage to break free, then he turns up the speed and tries to run around me or confuse me with feints.
4. Do you feel physically comfortable with him in terms of strength? speed?
Yes. He is stronger than me, but I can hold my own and move him around when I want to. Speed wise I think I am faster. He is far better and keeping his stamina though. I'm trying to improve this, it really isn't a conditioning thing, but more a mental thing and me being to aggressive and forgetting my technique.
5. Is it really the grip that is bothering you or the throw?
I think its a bit of both. The grip does bother me because I can't really mount offence. Once he gets that grip I try and control his elbow and lapel as best as I can and then go back to that wrestling style of driving my head into his temple/chin. This seems to frustrate and off balance him somewhat, but not that much and I feel like my forward momentum when using this technique really helps him create throws. On one occasion he absolutely killed me with an uchi where my wrestling style pressure/body lock backfired.
The throws bother me (he attacks by tugging me down, then running me forward, and going for sweeps when I push back, and then comboing it to uchi mata and similar throws). I just try and keep my base as best as I can and when I feel like he is weak from a throw I attempt my body lock throws. Shooting is really hard, and feels like a waste unless I can break him down before hand.
Thank you very much for the detailed questions.
Don't forget trying the grip under the armpit.
the main issue is posture. your posture is working in his favor, not yours. there are two easy solutions.
1. dont push forward into him.
2. keep your head off his body.
the secondary issue is your movement direction. as you said, you are pushing into him. you need to stop doing this. throwing people is not about moving into them, it is about making them move into you. you need to grip up and then drag him, spin him, anything but push him in a generally forward direction. using the forward push is easily one of the more complex movement patterns in Judo and is used very improperly by many people who wrestled becuase they don't have the same fear of forward throws due to the limitations of no-gi.
ummmm.....dont let him grip u like that!!!!
if he gets ur back seam.... try ducking your head to the outside of his arm and then work on breaking the grip(and/or working on a armbar/lock... even better dont let him grip u like that!!!!)
or worse he gets your belt.. drop our base move in to him keep yor back striaght(and your neck) look for a trip, reap or lifting throw where you grab around the body (and if u do not like how you are being controlled break the grip and start over).
if u feel uncomfortable with a grip realize it like you would being in he wrong neighbourhood at the wrong time of night..... get the fachk out.. calmy, intelectually and as quickly as humanly possible.
peace.
A training partner last class kept trying to get the over the back grip and when he tried I grabbed the gi near the arm pit area and turned my wrist inward and this prevented him from pulling me in and had to release his grip. this is one of the most effective ways to deal with this.
judoblackbelt - A training partner last class kept trying to get the over the back grip and when he tried I grabbed the gi near the arm pit area and turned my wrist inward and this prevented him from pulling me in and had to release his grip. this is one of the most effective ways to deal with this.so it sounds like you found a way to stall instead of a way to break his grip and advance your own actions right? when you let go of the armpit grip he's still going to have the grip he wanted.
Instead never let him get that grip. stop it and control that hand/sleeve before it comes in and then get your grip and throw.
BIC- I am not a grip switcher and I can throw from this armpit grip when uke has to re-grip.
judoblackbelt - BIC- I am not a grip switcher and I can throw from this armpit grip when uke has to re-grip.I'm not sure I know what that means.. What is a "grip switcher"? Are you saying that you just get the grip your stuck with and see it out to the end even though there are better grips?
the idea of "better grips" is personal. better for you might not be for another.