Awesome manfromyard, thanks for that explanation.
A lot of power deadlifters mention doing other "low back work" to improve their deadlift. What are the best exercises of this type?
Jack,
First off straight leg deads feel like they work hamstrings more than glutes or anything other muscles, regualar deads work gutes more I think...at the top of my lift I try to swing my hips fwd a littel by sucking in my glutes, I also roll my shoulders back if they have come fwd......I believe Randy does the straight leg deads in the team quest lifting video that circulates around here...thats where I first saw them...also a friend from class recommended them...also like squats, with fairly light weight, still rehabing, bent over rows (work more the upper back but uses lower to stabilize) and lately I am loving incline situps, I am able to keep my back straight and still get an awesome ab workout, which helps stabilize my lower back...also back extentions off of a roman chair...ttt for Wiggy's imput!
good stuff
Good Mornings,Romanian Deadlifts, & Bent over Rows.
I think it was explained that at where your lower back joins your hips, the erectors are the only thing holding your back into place.
Don't mean to be rude, but whoever explained this has drastically oversimplified the human body.
The Erector Spinae are only one (assembly) of approximately 29 muscles that attach to the Lumbo-Pelvic-Hip Complex. The primary function of the Erectors is to extend the thoracic and lumbar spine, and to a lesser degree, flex the thoracic and lumbar spine laterally.
In other words, they are not 'the only thing holding your back in place;' instead, they are a prime mover for particular movement of the spine.
While it's partly true they play some role in stability, there are MANY other muscles specifically designed to stabilize....
When one's stabilizing muscles ARE properly developed, only then can the Erectors (not to mention every other prime mover) perform their tasks in an ideal fashion, i.e. without comprising their tasks in order to help stabilize the body.
Thus, lifting programs that focus solely on prime mover development cannot be ideal.
The simplest analogy is someone trying to build a house without a foundation. Can it be done? Maybe. Is it the safest way? No. Is it the most logical way? No. Has it been proven to be the most effective way? No.
Watch this - http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFit_RipDeadliftIntro.wmv
The deadlift should be part of everyone's program. No exceptions.
ttt
gorillacupcake:
You're right in that Romanian deadlifts should be working your Hamstrings, but ideally they shouldn't bear the brunt of the exercise. Their job is to assist the Glutes during hip extension, so if you're feeling it more there then concentrate on using your Glutes as much as possible, and lighten the load if necessary. And don't worry, if you're leading with the Glutes the Hamstrings will get taxed quite nicely as well. By squeezing (or "sucking in" lol) your Glutes at the top of the lift you're definitely doing yourself a big favor, just be sure not to rush that contraction. Also, you're doing a great job trying to keep your shoulders back; just try to keep them back (i.e. keep your shoulderblades retracted and depressed) throughout the entire exercise.
As for your ab workout, if you're keeping your back entirely straight while doing 'inclined sit-ups' you're mainly using your Illiopsoas (Hip Flexors) to 'pull yourself up,' not your 'abs.' Not saying what you're doing is all wrong though....
By keeping your spine neutral you're taking emphasis off the Rectus Abdominus, aka the 'abs' or six-pack muscle, whose primary function is flexion of the thorac and lumbar spine (having the opposite role of the Erector Spinae, discussed earlier ;). You're instead placing stress on the inner stabilizing muscles of the core, and developing these muscles is a great thing. ESPECIALLY for those experiencing back pain. Core stability the logical first step in developing one's core -- in effect, you're building the foundation before you build your house... just what you should be doing.
I would not recommend compounding this into a sit up motion, though, due to the emphasis 'sitting-up' places on the Illiopsoas. Generally they are overactive in most people -- especially those who lead sedentary lifestyles -- so they shouldn't really be bearing the brunt in any exercises. In fact, emphasis on the Glutes, the opposite muscle in fuction to the Illiopsoas, basically IS a prescription across the board for everyone.
So... I know I'm jumping around, but here are the reasons why I think you (and others to an extent) are feeling better...
1 - Working your Glutes causes reciprocal inhibition of your Illiopsoas, which were likely tight to begin with. The Illiopsoas connect your femur to your lumbar spine, and when tight they in turn tug on the lumbar spine, thus creating pain. Strengthening the Glutes will cause the Illiopoas to stretch, lessening their tug on the lumbar spine
2 - Your sit-ups are developing the muscles designed to stabilize the entire spine. The stronger these muscles are, the less the spine is improperly held, and less pain it should convey
3 - The fact you're working out and making a conscious effort to help yourself
Again, I'd just recommend not completing the sitting up part of your core work.... Prone Iso-Abs (aka planks) and Side-Lying Iso-Abs would be great (similar) exercises to substitute in the place of the sit-ups.
Otherwise great job, and glad you're feeling better :)
Awesome Ruledogg...everything you said seems to make sense, especially with how I am feeling...thanks for the break down on everything...as for the deadlifts, i dont not currently lift heavy...max usually @ 80lbs right now...good to know I am mostly doing it right for being a nOOB...keeping the shoulder blades contracted is a point I have been trying to watch...proper technique is difficult!...and planks and side planks....interesting...I had read about them a little and done them once or twice...I just dont feel the burn like with other excersizes...got any recommendations on time to hold and reps and sets for them?....I also do a ton of other ab workout stuff...like to keep it varied and interesting...knee raises on a dip machine, eventually straight leg raises....v-ups using a stability ball...crunches on an S-ball...hypers(back extensions) on a S-ball...and side bends off of a bench...any others I should be doing?....also got any more workouts for the glutes?
RuleDogg, just looked at your profile, not sure if I should believe your words of wisdom...UVA grad?huh....bah I'm a VT grad...freaking wahoos!
"molsonman, I don't mean behind or in front of the bar. rather, back as in, like if they were in position of standing at attention and not rolled forward.
i think above or slightly in front of the bar like you mention sounds right as well. i think getting up as close to the bar as possible, up against your shins should help put them there. "
-SwampRocker
I'm pretty sure you do want your shoulders rolled forward at the top of the lift.
"i started doing deadlifts recently as well. does anyone know what would be concidered good and or shitty lift is (8-10 reps) for a 180 dude"
- tough balls
tough balls, this exercise shouldn't be treated the same as something like curls or extensions.
You don't want to be doing 8-10 reps per set for deadlifts. Try to keep it in the 1-5 range.
Bottom line is, if deadlifts and squats aren't part of your routine then you're not really lifting imo and are probably more interested in "beach muscles" than you are in being; stronger, more explosive, etc.
The previously posted link to the article at t-nation is fantastic, and as crappy as some of the forums at sherdog are, they actually have a fantastic "strength & power" forum. I'd encourage everyone to check out both sites, they're both awesome resources.
"Try to keep it in the 1-5 range" Whats the rationale behind this?
tttfl
ttt
If you go to www.t-nation.com right now they have a great article on what is considered a good lift, as in how you compare to others in matters of strength. If you have ever wondered if you are truly strong then check it out. I know someone asked the question earlier, as to what was considered a good deadlift.
gorillacupcake you went to Tech? O now it all makes sense, you need to stop doing so many of these....
;)
Seriously though you guys need to stop dominating us in football... Al Groh might be looking for a new job because of you
Anyway, back to deadlifts. Yeah keep your shoulders firmly but comfortably retracted. Just be sure they're not pronated (rolled forward) or elevated (shrugged).
The ideal base repitition cadence for core stability exercises would be 4-2-1, meaning you would reduce the force for four seconds (e.g. lowering yourself down), you would stabilize the contraction for two seconds (e.g. holding the tensed position), and generate the force to move into position over the course of one second. In other words EACH rep would last roughly seven seconds. Shortening your physical leverage or shortening the rep time would be regressions; lengthening the stabilizing time or increasing the demand to stabilize (using a Dyna-Disc, etc) would progress the exercises.
Ideally you should shoot for 12-20 total reps at this cadence when working the stability phase. This would change as you progress, and these variables do not apply to deadlifts, o-lifts, etc. I'll explain them some other time...
The timing and rep range is ideal being it's been proven that emphasizing the eccentric (force reduction) phase of a rep will lead to greater capacity for concentric strength (force production). This means greater strength and greater power when you get to those phases and their exercises. That's just valid, evidenced science, and frankly it's stupid for serious athletes/lifters to ignore, IMO.
And anyone who considers stability work is for pussies should try twenty side planks at 4-2-1 tempo, in proper form of course. Most people want to die after five
real men do stiff leg deadlift. especially if they want clamps for legs.
triangles and armbars never felt so good.
ttt for the mudnamers
RuleDogg, so if I am understanding you correctly..starting from the plank postion, lower for 4 secs, hold lowered position for 2 secs, then return back to plank in 1 sec...repeat 12-20 times for how many sets?..so this isnt get in plank position and hold for length of time?...also thanks for all this great info on deadlifts and planks...I gots lots more to learn it seems....and yeh tech grad...Hokie through and through...