My opinion of division close outs has drastically changed after the Worlds this year. I had two girls in the same weight/division that both made it to the finals. They closed out their division previously at the Las Vegas Open this year and agreed there that at the World's in the event of a potential close out, they would fight. To that point, my feelings on closing out a division was pretty much ambivalent. Well, fight they did and long story short,one of the girls incurred a serious knee injury. the injury was severe enough that she had to almost immediately fly home. She had to be carried off and on the podium. It was terrible! The girl that took the gold felt responsible and needles to say terrible. I felt responsible/terrible myself. I will not allow this to happen again. From now on, my Team policy will be to close out the division with the senior student getting the gold. I know the injury could have happened against anyone, but when it happens against a teammate, there is no discibing the awful feeling that blankets you. Not good
Thanks for sharing a different viewpoint on this. Good info. 
for sure, i hate when everyone feels like these guys should compete for our entertainment when the reality of the situation is that major injuries do sometimes happen as a result of the matches. badly injuring a training partner and friend is the worst feeling in the world.
agree if not getting paid.
I also am ok if people put on a work and show some skill for the crowd. long as its obvious...
I understand where you're coming from but all your doing is what makes you feel the best inside. It doesnt make it right. Injuries can always happen so you shouldnt feel any worse for your student then you would anyways.
So your thinking is if I have 2 students against each other the risk of injury is higher then 1 against someone else, so in order to make yourself feel good when its over or at least not feel bad then you want to implement something to ease your burden.
It should be about the competitiors and not you. It sucks that someone who trained longer gets a w over someone who might be better because you dont want to feel bad.
I am deeply sorry for your students injury, however issuing that as an excuse to not wrestle a finals match, is unsatisfactory and demeaning. I myself got injured in a worlds finals appearance against a teammate. Although we both felt horrible, it's the nature of the sport, we have since gone on to wrestle each other 2 more, both times in the finals. It seems like you made that decision for the girls. You are robbing them of that decision if that is indeed the case. There is no excuse why two people should not wrestle a finals match, if that's the case, both should be given lower placings and the losers of the semis should be given the opportunity to wrestle for 1st. My perspective is this, if you choose not to wrestle in the finals against your teammate that's your choice, and right now there is no rule against it, but if you decided prior to the tournament even taking place, you again robbed someone of an opportunity. But that's just like my opinion man.
How did the injury occur?
liuk3 - How did the injury occur?
From my angle it was hard to see, but it looked like the lower leg was severely torqued as her teammate was passing.
WARRIOR POET -Terry Maxwell -My opinion of division close outs has drastically changed after the Worlds this year. I had two girls in the same weight/division that both made it to the finals. They closed out their division previously at the Las Vegas Open this year and agreed there that at the World's in the event of a potential close out, they would fight. To that point, my feelings on closing out a division was pretty much ambivalent. Well, fight they did and long story short,one of the girls incurred a serious knee injury. the injury was severe enough that she had to almost immediately fly home. She had to be carried off and on the podium. It was terrible! The girl that took the gold felt responsible and needles to say terrible. I felt responsible/terrible myself. I will not allow this to happen again. From now on, my Team policy will be to close out the division with the senior student getting the gold. I know the injury could have happened against anyone, but when it happens against a teammate, there is no discibing the awful feeling that blankets you. Not good
you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. any chef will tell you that.
Chefs don't know shit about BJJ.
<blockquote>BJJPhenom1 - <span id='userPost49663045' class='User-349137'>I understand where you're coming from but all your doing is what makes you feel the best inside. It doesnt make it right. Injuries can always happen so you shouldnt feel any worse for your student then you would anyways.<br /><br />So your thinking is if I have 2 students against each other the risk of injury is higher then 1 against someone else, so in order to make yourself feel good when its over or at least not feel bad then you want to implement something to ease your burden.<br /><br />
It should be about the competitors and not you. It sucks that someone who trained longer gets a w over someone who might be better because you dont want to feel bad.</span></blockquote><br />
This. Its a competition so compete to win. I can say honestly if I were Maxwell's student and I paid my way, sacrificed, and fought my way to the finals and you told me that I would tell you no way in hell it goes down like that. You could ASK me but I will be damned if I was told to simply make you feel good, you make make it to the world championship round ONCE in your competitive career, you go for the win or don't bother competing at all.
Most of you would be responding differently if you are in Terry's position (a coach and a school owner).
Why not have it decided ahead of time if you have multiple competitors in the same division? For example, have an in-house tourney/match at your gym way before the tournament and the winner will be the winner if there is a close-out.
many of us have competed or trained in other arts that also had heavy competitions. Closeouts are garbage, hell I faced judo teammates PLENTY of times and everybody was adult enough about things. There is a reason why judo, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, etc. are on tv around the world on a regular basis (and teammmates from the same gym/academy face off w no issues) while bjj continues to be marginal. Closeouts are a disgrace to the very spirit of competition, either compete to win (honoring yourself and your sport) or just watch from the stands.
Hunter V - many of us have competed or trained in other arts that also had heavy competitions. Closeouts are garbage, hell I faced judo teammates PLENTY of times and everybody was adult enough about things. There is a reason why judo, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, etc. are on tv around the world on a regular basis (and teammmates from the same gym/academy face off w no issues) while bjj continues to be marginal. Closeouts are a disgrace to the very spirit of competition, either compete to win (honoring yourself and your sport) or just watch from the stands.So how is it any different if they already had the match to determine the winner before the close-out at their gym?
Good feedback guys. Gives me food for thought.
I spoke with Davin briefly last night about his thoughts on close outs, in light of what just took place. His view lined up with how most of you feel and he is dead against close outs.
Terry Maxwell -liuk3 - How did the injury occur?
From my angle it was hard to see, but it looked like the lower leg was severely torqued as her teammate was passing.
Got word today that the Doc thinks it's a torn ACL.
That's terrible. Sorry to hear of the in jury. Sounds like it was accidental? Hope she takes care of herself. Congrats on bringing along what seem like two exceptional female competitors. I'm sure that you are proud of both of them.
chitownbjj -Hunter V - many of us have competed or trained in other arts that also had heavy competitions. Closeouts are garbage, hell I faced judo teammates PLENTY of times and everybody was adult enough about things. There is a reason why judo, wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, etc. are on tv around the world on a regular basis (and teammmates from the same gym/academy face off w no issues) while bjj continues to be marginal. Closeouts are a disgrace to the very spirit of competition, either compete to win (honoring yourself and your sport) or just watch from the stands.So how is it any different if they already had the match to determine the winner before the close-out at their gym?
easy, on any given day anybody can win. THAT is the point of competition, to go out and give your all as you earn the win on that day. Hell you can be going into a match w the reigning world champ but guess what? Everybody starts off 0-0 and the current champ can be bounced out early like everyone else. Trying to do determine a winner early on is shady as hell and is a disgrace to the very spirit of competition as its easy to roll with no pressure on the line at the academy, whole different game when something is truly on the line in front of a crowd.
First and foremost, I am specifically talking about close-outs at the lower belts.
Sure, anyone can be injured anytime anywhere. Don't get me wrong. Winning a division at the Worlds is a huge accomplishment, but unless you can repeat and do well in other tourneys then no one really care that much about John/Jane Doe winning the light purple at Worlds (does anyone even remember some of the winners from previous years?) This goes against your argument about a fluke win anyway. So what's exactly on the line besides your entertainment?
So unless you are a professional and needs the credentials in order to make money off of jiu-jitsu in the future then teammates closing out in the finals is no different than two competitors from different teams not having to fight for 3rd place?
I am talking at all belts. The reality is that you do not know if you will EVER get to the finals of a tourney w the prestige of the Mundials. Not everyone is a full time competitor, some of us are in college, married w kids and full time jobs, etc. So some times when you get to that purple belt final that really may be your ONE shot at ever achieving something of importance in terms of sports competition. So yes, what is on the line is you challenging yourself and knowing in your heart that you gave it your all and either came up short or succeeded. Closeouts and private decisions regarding winning will ALWAYS leave you with doubt and are disrespectful for those who worked their asses off but came up short. If anything, not wanting to actually try to win is a bit cowardice as it allows a person to not have to fully challenge themselves when they know that EVERYTHING is on the line (and mind you there are alot of people in life that fall under this). So again, respect the sport and compete or just be a spectator.
Hunter V - I am talking at all belts. The reality is that you do not know if you will EVER get to the finals of a tourney w the prestige of the Mundials. Not everyone is a full time competitor, some of us are in college, married w kids and full time jobs, etc. So some times when you get to that purple belt final that really may be your ONE shot at ever achieving something of importance in terms of sports competition. So yes, what is on the line is you challenging yourself and knowing in your heart that you gave it your all and either came up short or succeeded. Closeouts and private decisions regarding winning will ALWAYS leave you with doubt and are disrespectful for those who worked their asses off but came up short. If anything, not wanting to actually try to win is a bit cowardice as it allows a person to not have to fully challenge themselves when they know that EVERYTHING is on the line (and mind you there are alot of people in life that fall under this). So again, respect the sport and compete or just be a spectator.Ok fair enough. But if you had that mentality...I am sure you will be treating that potential match at your home gym to determine the close out the same way especially if you, your training partner, and your coach had all agreed to settle it in this manner ahead of time. The only difference is that the environment won't be the Worlds.
Yes we can agree that the crowd/environment will be a big factor in the match, but the better person should win 8 outta 10 times regardless of the environment (except for Liborio who doesn't do well in competition :)
Nope as doing it at the gym still does not have the pressure of being in the moment. There are plenty of guys who are monsters in the gym but when in competition, when it really matters, wilt under the pressure. It's easy to do well where you feel comfort but a whole other thing to do it on neutral ground.