"They will get taller, just like Asian americans are a bit taller than fob asians, but still far shorter than whites or blacks.
It's just genetics. On the credit side they live longer lives even though they don't excecise and smoke/drink heavily."
You misunderstand how genetics works. Just because I eat well and grow strong doesn't mean my son will be stronger. The Japanese are no more likely to have taller offspring than Europeans are to have taller offspring. Selection works in that some people don't breed. In today's society, short guys are less likely to produce offspring than tall guys. You will see an increase in average heigh in all countries. The average height in some countries in Northern Europe is now 6'1 for males our age depending on the data you look at (Denmark I believe was the highest) and in Japan it is 5'7. There is no evidence for the Japanese "narrowing the gap," but there is evidence of height being increased throughout the entire world. A lot of this has to do with a more nutritious diet. But it's unlikely that Asians will ever catch up to Europeans in average height unless there is some intentional selection for it (there already is indirect selection for it).
Anyways, in times of famine being tall is a negative. Everything costs upkeep in calories, and in times of famine the tall and large are more likely to starve.
Genetics has NOTHING to do with your behavior, it has all to do with your genes. Even if Japan forced all their men to lift weights all day and become MMA champs, the kids would still have the exact same genes if such a policy wasn't chosen. If you're worried about your offspring's genetics, don't try to improve yourself, try to get the best mate possible.
"yes. that's why Minowa trains in Korea where there is a bigger stock of large people."
Quite a few Japanese judo guys are actually Korean or descendants of Koreans. Akiyama from the 2003 Worlds Team is ethnically Korean but changed his name to a Japanese name (his citizenship is Japanese). Regardless, when he lost, many Japanese newspapers had stories "Korean Akiyama involved in controversy."
"Depends on the time period. Prior to Meiji, the Japanese looked up to the Chinese much like they look up to the West now. (A lot can be said of many Westerners looking up to Japan in certain ways now) After Japan realized that China was not a powerful country, but was in fact weak and backwards, this admiration turned towards scorn. Japanese looked up to the West (and itself), while looking down on China and the rest of Asia. One can say that Japan is still somewhat in this stage now.
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I'll agree with that.
on everything else I will say this:
Greek civilization gave rise to European civilization just like Chinese civilization gave rise to East Asian civilization, including some parts SE asia.
The basic thought processes of East Asians are entirely different from Western thinking. Formal logic, analytic thinking, which is a staple of western culture is not widely used in East Asia. East Asians tend to rely on dialectical reasoning instead of analytical.
The reasons are obvious. It's the difference between coming from the Greek analytical discrete tradition or coming from the holistic and more organic Chinese tradition based on taoism and confucianism.
Ricky, so your are saying we should all fuck big fat girls to give UFC a better HW division?
"You misunderstand how genetics works. Just because I eat well and grow strong doesn't mean my son will be stronger. The Japanese are no more likely to have taller offspring than Europeans are to have taller offspring. Selection works in that some people don't breed. In today's society, short guys are less likely to produce offspring than tall guys. You will see an increase in average heigh in all countries. The average height in some countries in Northern Europe is now 6'1 for males our age depending on the data you look at (Denmark I believe was the highest) and in Japan it is 5'7. There is no evidence for the Japanese "narrowing the gap," but there is evidence of height being increased throughout the entire world. A lot of this has to do with a more nutritious diet. But it's unlikely that Asians will ever catch up to Europeans in average height unless there is some intentional selection for it (there already is indirect selection for it).
Anyways, in times of famine being tall is a negative. Everything costs upkeep in calories, and in times of famine the tall and large are more likely to starve.
Genetics has NOTHING to do with your behavior, it has all to do with your genes. Even if Japan forced all their men to lift weights all day and become MMA champs, the kids would still have the exact same genes if such a policy wasn't chosen. If you're worried about your offspring's genetics, don't try to improve yourself, try to get the best mate possible. "
so what is wrong with what I said? I said genetically asians are not going to be as tall even if they adopt a more protein rich diet.
I dont' think it's a disadvantage to be shorter. Japanese people are leaner, more optimized and live longer healthier lives. They don't have a 50% obesity rate like us Americans. I would rather be shorter and skinny than big and fat. I think it's obvious.
In addition, being physically larger offers no advantage in the modern world. You take up more space and expend more energy. There is a reason why smaller dogs live longer than big dogs.
Well, whether or not I want to I usually end up with those ones anyway...
"ricky..genetics only dictates the potential...their diet habits are changing and it is leading to bigger guys in general... "
exactly grabaka.
"Greek civilization gave rise to European civilization just like Chinese civilization gave rise to East Asian civilization, including some parts SE asia.
The basic thought processes of East Asians are entirely different from Western thinking. Formal logic, analytic thinking, which is a staple of western culture is not widely used in East Asia. East Asians tend to rely on dialectical reasoning instead of analytical.
The reasons are obvious. It's the difference between coming from the Greek analytical discrete tradition or coming from the holistic and more organic Chinese tradition based on taoism and confucianism."
I'm not going to discuss Western-Chinese learning at length, since this is a very broad topic. But I will say that Asia these days uses western logic instead of their more holistic but illogical philosophies. This philosophical logic has been a distinctincly Western achievement until the modern age. While there certainly were intellectual powerhouses in the Orient (such as Sima Qian, one of my personal favorites) there never was a logical structure. There never was adequate theory. That is what the West brought China was theory in science and theory in thought. China was able to discover something such as gunpowder solely by chance, but could never explain it. When it reached Europe, it was put into a theoretical model which was explained and built upon.
I can think of no better example than Chinese versus Western medicine. The Chinese had various theories about how the body worked, involving hot/cold, qi, and other such ideas, as well as an extensive library of information about herbs. But their theories of how the body worked were extremely flawed. Their knowledge of herbs was great, but they weren't able to systemative everything into a system. That system, which the Asians now use, is Western medicine. If you can find it, you can find the primary source in English of Japanese many centuries ago performing an atopsy and being shocked to see that the anatomy of the human body is exactly as Dutch learning detailed. Shocked to see that their (Chinese medicine's) view of something as important as the body was so mistaken.
Now medicine in East Asia is mostly Western. The poor people have no resource in some cases but to use Oriental Medicine (usually not called Chinese medicine by the way). Traditions die hard, and quite a lot of people still use Chinese medicine for things not treatable by Western medicine (terminal diseases, minor aches and pains, etc). Kyunghee university in Korea, for example, is considered the top "Eastern Medicine" medical school in the country. It's not prestigious at all to get in. Most people who go there, got turned down by the many dozen real medical schools. Even acupuncture, which was brought back to the West by monks, was over the centuries systematized by the French as the top system of acupuncture in use. What they did is take all this data, and created theories based on it. This is the form of acupuncture real doctors use today. Even real doctors in East Asia learn this form of acupuncture.
"While there certainly were intellectual powerhouses in the Orient (such as Sima Qian, one of my personal favorites) there never was a logical structure"
Moism came very close to that but was short lived.
"I dont' think it's a disadvantage to be shorter. Japanese people are leaner, more optimized and live longer healthier lives. They don't have a 50% obesity rate like us Americans. I would rather be shorter and skinny than big and fat. I think it's obvious."
The life expectancy rate for Europeans versus Japanese is about the same. Americans lead the developed world in heart attacks, but the Japanese lead in stomach cancer. The stomach cancer they lead the world in is brought about by eating white rice. Korea and China also are neck and neck with Japan in stomach cancer. The US meanwhile, has one of the lowest rates of stomach cancer.
Another possible contributor to an increased risk of stomach cancer is that approximately 10% of Japanese are infested with an intestinal fish parasite and 15% have Opisthorchis sinensis (Chinese liver flukes).
"I'm not going to discuss Western-Chinese learning at length, since this is a very broad topic. But I will say that Asia these days uses western logic instead of their more holistic but illogical philosophies. This philosophical logic has been a distinctincly Western achievement until the modern age. While there certainly were intellectual powerhouses in the Orient (such as Sima Qian, one of my personal favorites) there never was a logical structure. There never was adequate theory. That is what the West brought China was theory in science and theory in thought. China was able to discover something such as gunpowder solely by chance, but could never "
Have you read "science and civilization in China?" It spans 17 volumes and it compiles all the major discoveries and inventions by Chinese throughout their history.
The Chinese were more intuitive into their approach and IMO they did have a system for discovering new things. It is just that the Chinese never separted science from philosophy, that's why they could never have paved the way for pure science.
Western innovations that have their basis in China include printing (paper, block printing, and moveable-type printing), agricultural technology (irrigation systems), mechanical engineering (clockwork, iron, and lead manufacturing, efficient harnesses), and martial (gunpowder, the precursors to the barrel gun, and cannons) technology. These inventions could not have occured by chance. just becuase the chinese did not label their system or right down a rigid framework, doesn't mean they came across it by luck.
and obviously in the modern disciplines the use of western anayltic thinking is required. But if you look at everyday life, East Asians are still far more intuitive and dialectical rather than logical. This explains why they make such good businessmen, they are a risk loving group of people, which goes against western rationalism.
"The life expectancy rate for Europeans versus Japanese is about the same."
Japan tops the list almost every year.
China, Mexico have similar rates of longetivity as the US even w/ 20x less wealth and inferior health care.
In case you're curious, about 10% of Chinese have this parasite:
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/ascaris.html
I have seen about 10 pounds of this parasite removed from heavily infested patients before. The picture at the bottom is the best one.
China and Mexico are at the bottom of the list for life expectancy with rank #95 and #93. The US is #48, but you really need to look at the life expectancy including only natural deaths (because of endemic childhood violence in certain ethnic groups). Also the US is such a hodgepodge of cultures, that the life expectancy varies enormously depending on race and ethnicity. Japan is #4 while Andorra (a European country between France and Spain, is #1).
"China and Mexico are at the bottom of the list for life expectancy with rank #95 and #93. The US is #48, but you really need to look at the life expectancy excluding of natural deaths. Also the US is such a hodgepodge of cultures, that the life expectancy varies enormously depending on race and ethnicity. Japan is #4 while Andorra (a European country between France and Spain, is #1). "
which list are you looking at?
The WHO org says Japan tops the list.
CIA World Factbook December 2003
China 72.22 years
USA 77.14 years
Comparable, IMO considering the fact that they make only a couple hundred a month and have inferior health care.
If they had the same health, safety and living standards as the US I would imagine china having much much higher rates.
BBC news:
Japan 'the most healthy country'
Japanese children can look forward to a long and healthy life
People who live in Japan can expect to remain in good health longer than anybody else in the world, according to the World Health Organisation (WHO).
WHO scientists have developed a new way of calculating the number of years that a person can be expected to live in full health.
It is known as the DALE (Disability-Adjusted Life Years) system, and gives a truer picture of the health of a country than simply studying death rates.
Top ten countries
Japan - 74.5 years
Australia - 73.2
France - 73.1
Sweden - 73.0
Italy - 72.7
Spain - 72.8
Greece - 72.5
Switzerland - 72.5
Monaco - 72.4
Andorra - 72.3
Using the system to rank the world's 191 countries has uncovered some surprise findings.
In Japan the average healthy life expectancy is 74.5 years.
Australia is second and France third on the list, but the US ranks only number 24.
The UK is 14th, with an average of 71.7 years. For UK women the average is 73.7 years, for men it is 69.7 years
For a full list of countries in ranking order click here .
Sierra Leone comes last with an average life expectancy at birth of only 25.9 years.
There is a notable gender gap in many countries. For instance, in Russia women can expect 66.4 years of full health, compared to just 56.1 years for men.
The WHO estimates almost 56 million people died in 1999, 10.5 million of whom were children less than 5 years of age.
Previously, life expectancy estimates were based on the overall length of life based on data about death rates.
"there is no doubt that asians and the japanese in particular are largely influenced, even intentionaly so, by western culture and ideas. however, that being said, the influence is superficial for the most part. east asian cultures are predominantly homogenous in their general philosophy and everyday way of thinking and are very very very different from western ideals in nearly every way imaginable
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agree.
Yes, it is comparable. But there are two things you have to keep in mind:
1. China has universal (but very poor quality) health care.
2. Chinese has endemic health problems which lower the quality of life enormously (parasite infections, hepatitis, etc.)
3. US numbers are kept low because of non-natural deaths due to violence (especially in minority neighborhoods)
4. China fudges their numbers. They have been doing that with literacy figures since the 1950's. Economists recalculate the official numbers to get more accurate estimates. Public numbers are what the Chinese use to evaluate their economy. It's public knowledge that the economic growth figures have been inflated for decades as well.
But, if China did have an equal standard of living (which it won't for a few centuries), I imagine the life expectancy would be higher because of almost free socialized medicine (uneven access to medical care is also what is keeping America behind Europe and Japan).
(BTW, Japan has almost free medical care which is of good quality, but far behind the United States which has the highest quality in the world. The richest Japanese fly out to the US to have any sort of operations done. One of the main reasons for this is that US medical care is not socialized, thus doctors earn higher salaries, and the best doctors from all over the world go to the US to earn in a year what they would elsewhere in a couple years.)