"One of the main reasons I think they have been doing poorly in the heavier weight classes". "A big problem with Japanese MMA is that the average height and weight for men is quite low. The average would be around 5'7 140 lbs. If I went in the 60's, it would have been different. Even then, Geesink won gold in the first Olympics which had judo in it.
You're only going to get 1% or so of all men who are above 200 lbs. Doesn't make a good foundation to build strong hopes for any sport which has a +220 weight category. "
These statements are completely the opposite of the reality. Japan has been by far the most dominant force in HW divisions ever since international JUDO competitions started. Since World Judo Championship and Olympic Judo started, there have been 58 titles in +93kg, +95kg, +100kg, -100kg, and Open weight classes. Japanese judoka captured 35 of the 58 gold medals.
"Looking at it from a different perspective: Japan won 6 while Europe won 18.". Europe is not a country. You are comparing 1 country Japan with the entire Europe which consists of many countries. The comparison is set theoretically invalid.
"An interesting thing about Japan is that the elevated life expectancy is mostly for women.". This is also a false statement. The life expectancy of Japanese men is also the highest in the world.
"BTW, Japan has almost free medical care which is of good quality, but far behind the United States which has the highest quality in the world.". Japan's medical care is not almost free. The National Health Care covers 70-80% of the cost, which is comparable to HMO's coverage rates in the US. Also, about 40 million people in US have no health insurance. Based on this fact alone, the quality of medical care in the US is lower than that of Japan. In US, nurse practitioners, who are not as highly trained as doctors, are allowed to diagnose patients in primary care. In Japan, only doctors are allowed to diagnose patients in primary care. So, one can always expect to receive a high quality medical care in Japan, which is not the case in US.
RickyMMA, I don't think that it is fair to group Europe (which has significantly more people AND a LOT LOT LOT more spots) vs. Japan in terms of judo excellence. Additionally, I don't think that it is fair to go with the 90s only (even though that is the most recently completed decade) solely because David Douillet won 4 World Gold medals and 2 Olympic gold medals (albeit the last one being in 2000).
What's wrong with the 80s? Steroid use was at its peak (in theory, probably the same rate now), the USSR wasn't represented by 12 countries in Europe (as it is now, excluding its Asian descendents), and athletic competition was also professional in the 1980s (as judo had been in the Olympics as a full-time sport for men since 1972). Yamashita and Saito were untouchable for a long-time. Prior to them Endo won the worlds as well.
At 66kg Japan hasn't won in a very long-time in comparison to 100+kg.
btw, Akiyama is getting more support in Japan than he got in Korea, hence the switch in national teams, right? Akiyama is the embodiment of coolness though (dyed hair and all, kinda like judo's Genki Sudo). Damn he is exciting to watch (as the whole crowd gets energized).
Yep, I'm South Asian, girlfriend is East Asian. So kids will be Asian, but really Canadian at heart ;o)
I'm back from work now, so I'll look at the numbers after dinner.
Sothy,
The question is not whether Japan has been the greatest Judo country since the 1964 Olympics, since of course it has. The point is that Japan, winning only 6 out of 24 medals in LHWT, HWT, and Open, during the 10 year period of 1991 to 2001 cannot be considered to "easily dominate" as EvilYoshida previously wrote. In fact, France did better. Europe as a whole did much better than Asia. Korea, also facing the same difficulties finding 220lb and 220+lb athletes, didn't even win a single gold. Meanwhile both Korea and Japan are great judo countries, which are particularly strong and deep in the lower weight-classes. This should come as no surprise to those who follow boxing, with Koreans and Japanese doing well in the smaller weight-classes but getting overpowered in the heavies.
"What's wrong with the 80s?" I maintain that the 90's signalled a shift to Europe as the center of heavyweight judo. In the 80's, Japan was at the top of its game. But judo has become much more international since it entered the Olympics in '64, and it will continue to do so.
"I don't think that it is fair to go with the 90s only (even though that is the most recently completed decade) solely because David Douillet won 4 World Gold medals and 2 Olympic gold medals (albeit the last one being in 2000)."
And is it fair to include Inoue, who won Inoue and Shinohara who account for 5 out of 6?
"RickyMMA, I don't think that it is fair to group Europe (which has significantly more people AND a LOT LOT LOT more spots) vs. Japan in terms of judo excellence"
Fine. France had only one spot same as Japan. Yet it did better. Poland, Hungary, and the USSR as well (only one gold medal from the ex-USSR came from outside of Russia) had only one spot and did very well. I'm not saying that Japanese heavyweight judo is inferior, all I am saying is that it does not dominate.
When I trained in Europe, most countries had plenty of solid 220 and 220+ guys to fight against. Even countries such as the Netherlands with a 10mil population had plenty of world class heavyweights to train against. In Japan there are very few. The ones they have are quite good, but for foreign heavyweights looking to train, it's useless to go anywhere except a few places such as Tokai, Tsukuba, Meiji, etc. If you go to anywhere else, you may have just one 220+ guy to train with. Because of this, Japan is abysmal for training when it comes to heavyweights. Even Inoue himself views the center of judo to have shifted to Europe. Maybe if he fought 81 or 90 kilo, training in Japan and Korea would be sufficient for him.
WhiteWhale,
Results for the World Freestyle Wrestling World Championships in 2003.
http://www.escapesports.com/Worlds/Mens%20Team%20Totals.htm
US is #2 behind only Georgia.
Coincidentally, if you look at Japan and Korea, you will notice that all their points were from the lighter weight-classes.
Ricky MMA what's your beef against East Asians in general?
Whitewhale was talking about US wrestling and you just had to randomly note that the Korean and Japanese points were for the lower weight classes?
Then you say that, lol, that East Asian culture is not homogenous which is absurd. Open up any history textbook and you will see that China is the basis of Eastern civilization.
and for you to say that Chinese inventions were discoverd by "chance" is equally ludicrous. The chinese must have found out about tens of thousands of things by chance too, huh? even negative numbers! I guess Joseph Needham's 17 volume opus magnum Science and civilization is about the luckiest inventors in the world!
I then said that japanese dominate judo. YOu said that wasn't true because it was only very recently that they started dominating HWs again. You then mentioned in the past 15 years and I basically said you're only as good as your last year. But why did you arbitraily choose 15 years? Cuz it fit your european superiority thesis? What's wrong with that? I will quote my man pdeking: "Since World Judo Championship and Olympic Judo started, there have been 58 titles in +93kg, +95kg, +100kg, -100kg, and Open weight classes. Japanese judoka captured 35 of the 58 gold medals. "
Then you speak about how Japanese people despise other Asians, when in actuality they despise any foreigner. just like pdeking said, some of the most popular male actors in Japan right now are Korean. HK actors like Tony Leung and Leslie Cheung are extremely popular in Japan as well. The only reason they are despised is because they are poorer. A Hong Kongnese or Taiwanese would not get as much bs as a mainland chinese. Frankly speaking, the mainland chinese get no respect anywehre. They are loud, annoying and have little class. Not all, but a lot.
you then make up some bullshit about Japanese life expectancy, as pdeking pointed out, saying that the increases were "only for the women" Funny you didn't mention that Japanese men live the longest too.
The oldest man ever recorded was japanese.
Now, I'm not a japanese nuthugger. I'm just interested in the facts. The only reason why i may seem like japanese fighter nuthugger is because everybody on the UG believes that japaense fighters can only win "by work" or that they are "tomato cans"
But the reality is that UFC has way more tomato cans than pride. The difference is that in UFC, they don't get invited back, but in Pride their is loyalty and gratitude for their employees. that's why you see people like Otsuka, Yamaoto etc. come back to fight.
In addition, funny people don't mention that most of the cans are from the states and elsewhere now. Giant Silva, Predator, Sentoryu, Dan Bobish, Waterman, vader etc. These are the new crop of tomatos , but they don't get labeled tomato? Why because they are not japanese.
That is the only reason why I get pissed when people bash japanese fighters. Because people single out the japanese and accuse them of nonsense and label them cans when in actuality there are cans in every country.
It's obvious that you are some insecure white power tripper.. that tries to hide behind a facade of bs facts and figures.
When debating life expectancy you start bringing out bs like stomach worms or whatever? that doesn't change the fact that the Japanese live the longest in the world. YOu then started bringing random shit like Karoshi, which is actually a myth. How do you die from over work? You die because you don't sleep or rest. Then suicide. Let me tell you. Even if the Japaense suicide rate is high, the effect it would have on life expectancy would be very very negligible. It wouldn't even be one hundredth of one percent.
and then you say bs about how "life is miserable in China, Korea, Japan?" then how come every japense that comes to the states goes back to japan? I thought US was the country of freedom and opportunity? Why? Because Japan is the best for Japanese people! Let me tell you this: in terms of practical technology and living standards, japan is head and shoulders above the US. You've lived there, you know how high their standards are. I've been there too. Their train system, public transportation, public services, restraunt service etc. put any american city to shame.
Korea is also a very exciting place. The place never sleeps, especially seoul. Not like here in the US, everything closes at 6:30 because people have to go to Church in the morning.
Taiwan likewise.
The point is, why did you have to make random covert attacks towards east asians? i don't get it.
I'm secure enough not to attack other nationalties. I only defend the japanese when they are wrongly accused. I cricitize when necessary. You, my friend, ricky mma, seem to have a chip on you shoulder regarding Asian people.
"4. China fudges their numbers. They have been doing that with literacy figures since the 1950's. Economists recalculate the official numbers to get more accurate estimates. Public numbers are what the Chinese use to evaluate their economy. It's public knowledge that the economic growth figures have been inflated for decades as well. "
LOL. China's growth is real. If you've been to Shanghai in the 90's you'll know that it has changed 1000% if you go there today.
And how do you know China's fudges their numbers? Does anybody have their data? or access to it?
In addition. I was talking about Chinese life expectancy and you just had to bring up some bs about how the chinese lie about this and that and whatever.
Let me tell you, there is a reason why China has overtaken Japan as the US's largest trading partner. Why? Because they are growing very very fast. They have managed to do in 15-20 years, what it took the US almost 200 years to do. Granted that has to do w/ leapfrogging into convergence, but that is still an impressive achievement.
And you also said that China will never have "the same standards as the US for centuries" LOL. China had higher living standards than any place in the world up until the dawn of the industrial Europe. After that the Europeans reached parity and finally overtook them.
And also. China's growth averages about 8-9% per annum. That is above US growth by 5-6%. Do you even know what kind of effect a 1% lead can have over something like 30 years? It' s fucking huge. If china can sustain these growth rates for 10-15 more years, they will converge.
Dude. You're a joke.
I have no beef against East Asians at all. I mentioned the Japanse and Korean wrestling points to reemphasize that East Asians may be excellent at MMA (the Japanese in particular), but they will never achieve recognition of this because they don't and won't dominate the heaviest weight categories. They physically won't be able to compete at 220 and 220+ as proven by wrestling, boxing, and every other sport except for judo. Once judo becomes more internationalized, even Japan will have little chance at the heavier weight categories.
"Ricky MMA what's your beef against East Asians in general?" I'm of mixed race -- East Asian/White. I have no beef against East Asians, but I do find it ridiculous that pro-Asians like you and pdeking can't look at things objectively. Does it hurt your pride that China is a piss poor country? It doesn't hurt mine that East Asians don't do well in the heavy weight-categories, even though I have quite a bit of East Asian blood.
I didn't choose the last 15 years so I could prove my point with selective data. I'm discussing a recent trend in judo. As anyone can tell you, one event (2003) is not enough to produce a statistically valid result. Also, I wanted to avoid 1980 and 1984 since those years can't be considered because of the boycotts.
"Then you speak about how Japanese people despise other Asians, when in actuality they despise any foreigner. just like pdeking said, some of the most popular male actors in Japan right now are Korean. HK actors like Tony Leung and Leslie Cheung are extremely popular in Japan as well. The only reason they are despised is because they are poorer. A Hong Kongnese or Taiwanese would not get as much bs as a mainland chinese. Frankly speaking, the mainland chinese get no respect anywehre. They are loud, annoying and have little class. Not all, but a lot."
I recommend you go live there and see for yourself. It's obvious you don't know much about Japan. Wealth is not the main determinant of respect. Even Africans (not African-Americans) are given a great deal of respect which the Chinese and Koreans are not. If I could say one reason Japanese look down on Chinese is not because they are poor, but because they are "dirty."
If it helps your self-esteem to cheer for all the Japanese MMA fighters, then by all means continue doing so. Just remember that your biases are conflicting with your ability to look at events realistically. I applaud your efforts to improve your self-esteem by inaccurately portraying Japanese MMA, judo, and UC Berkeley, among others.
"If it helps your self-esteem to cheer for all the Japanese MMA fighters, then by all means continue doing so. Just remember that your biases are conflicting with your ability to look at events realistically. I applaud your efforts to improve your self-esteem by inaccurately portraying Japanese MMA, judo, and UC Berkeley, among others. "
how is this helping my self esteem? lol. I mentioned that japan has many top MMA fighters, which is a FACT. There is no denying this. Across the whole weight spectrum they are probably the 2nd or 3rd best. Even you agreed with this.
and how do I cheer for all the Japanese fighters? I cheer for Kondo, Yoshida and Sakuraba. THAT'S FUCKING IT! For others like Ogawa, I personally think he sucks and will be destroyed next round. I defended him against baseless accusations.
and like I said before. I watch MMA for entertainment. I don't watch for the necessarily the strongest fighter. I like to watch cartwheel guardpass, mongolian chop, saku stomp, flying triangle and armbar. Only japanese fighters do this. That's why I like them. It's not because of racial bs. Fightsport is about entertainment and there is a reason why the most popular HL's are Rumina sato, Sakurai, Genki Sudo and sakuraba. Why don't we see randy or chuck HL's, Arona, bustamante or even Royce Gracie HL's?... . because they pull bog standard moves, Lay and pray etc. melting to guard. Japanese fighters don't do that. I have a very valid reason to like them.
Also, I could give a rat's ass about japanese judo. Some guy made a comment about each countries respective strengths in combat sports and the idiot singled out japan by saying "it has the best girls" while saying "russia has the best Judo"
I reacted to that because over the whole course of Judo history, Japan has the best judo. That's all their is to it. I don't follow it particularly.
UC Berkeley is a top school. There is no doubt about this. Why do you dodge the fact that their are more Nobel Laureates in the Berkeley faculty than ANY OTHER university in the world? Berkeley may be inferior in the sense that the students are not part of the old boy's network, but it is still a very prestigious school. I would say it is the top public university in the world. You'd be a fool to think that UCB isn't an elite school.
"Dude. You're a joke."
No, dude. You're a fucking joke. There isn't anyone on this site who takes you seriously. All of your posts are full of biased pro-judo pro-Japan bullshit which even most of the other "judo trolls" think is ridiculous. As somebody who defends judo from inaccurate attacks on here, I often thought individuals like you and pdeking do more harm than good to the judo with your constant exagerrations about judo's supremacy.
I'm not going to discuss Japan and East Asia with you since there is no point. However, I would like to reiterate that what I have said is true. Karoshi is indeed real and is recognized by the Japanese government and the Japanese press. Of course there is no death from overwork per se, but it can be considered the main cause. If you knew anything about medicine, you would know that causes of death are primary, secondary, and tertiary. An example would be a baby dying in Africa. Primary cause would be dehydration, second would be malnutrition which causes the dehydration, the tertiary cause would be a mass famine. It would still be completely valid to say the cause of death is due to famine even though it's actually a tertiary cause. Here is one of many websites on Karoshi: http://www.apmforum.com/columns/boye51.htm.
Sothy,
Akiyama wasn't defended by Japan much at all. In fact Nakamura went out publically saying that Akiyama also cheated in the All-Japan Weight Class Champs. That was an unprecedented act of defiance where Japan's reputation is at stake and charges were still pending with the IJF.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/sport/archives/2003/09/16/2003068113/print
"I recommend you go live there and see for yourself. It's obvious you don't know much about Japan. Wealth is not the main determinant of respect. Even Africans (not African-Americans) are given a great deal of respect which the Chinese and Koreans are not. If I could say one reason Japanese look down on Chinese is not because they are poor, but because they are "dirty." "
LMFAO. The africans get respect? haha. that's why there always promoting cheesy little dance clubs, driving around in their USED lexus in Roppongi and shibuya, pretending to be African American with that thick ass sengalese accent? hahahaha...
Africans are nowhere as respected as Koreans or Chinese. It's just that the dumbass chinese that go to china are the stupidest of the stupid and the worst of the worst. Anybody with an ounce of common sense would not escape to japan for a better life.
Wealth is a big determinant of respect. A person from HK or Taiwan would not be looked down upon because they have more wealth and have developed their own technologies and innovations. Taiwanese are actually very well respected around their world for their PC hardware innovations.
The japanese basically despise foreigners in general. While they may superfically like whites, most of them are resorted to the "charisma man" english teacher job. There are a lot of landlords that will refuse to rent out to whites because of their "reputation." My girlfriend is Japanese, i've been there numerous times and I can assure you that the discrimination is towards all foreigners not just koreans and chinese.
"Also, I could give a rat's ass about japanese judo. Some guy made a comment about each countries respective strengths in combat sports and the idiot singled out japan by saying "it has the best girls" while saying "russia has the best Judo""
Actually your stellar "elite education" you received at UCB didn't help you much when reading a basic statement.
Here is the original post which you misinterpreted:
"Best BJJ - Braz (big suprise?) Best wrestlers - US Best strikers - tie US/Europe Best Judo - Russ Best freestyle grapplers - Japan Best girls - Sweden"
He's saying that Japan has the best freestyle grapplers while Sweden has the best girls.
Maybe if you weren't so worked up you could actually read posts on here without making such mistakes. All I have to ask is this, are you crying right now? You seem like the type of guy that starts crying and throws a little fit when his judo and Japanese heroes don't do well.
"Maybe if you weren't so worked up you could actually read posts on here without making such mistakes. All I have to ask is this, are you crying right now? You seem like the type of guy that starts crying and throws a little fit when his judo and Japanese heroes don't do well.
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yeah fucking right. I cried tears of joy when that bastard Yamamoto got KOed by Crocop.
In addition, the person that i want to see beatdown most in MMA is a japanese, Norifumi Yamamoto, because that japanese redneck has no respect.
I like exciting fighters. It just so happens that many of the most exciting ones are japanese.
"In addition, the person that i want to see beatdown most in MMA is a japanese, Norifumi Yamamoto, because that japanese redneck has no respect."
I agree with you 100% here. I'm not sure, however, how much of his bahavior is for the camera. Pride likes to hype up certain fights as a good versus evil affair, much like professional wrestling. Ogawa-Leko was the same mostly-for-the-camera shit-talkings.
Anyways, I think I'm going to quit this thread now. It has taken too much of my time. If you don't agree with me, that's okay. People disagree on countless things.
Cheers
"No, dude. You're a fucking joke. There isn't anyone on this site who takes you seriously. All of your posts are full of biased pro-judo pro-Japan bullshit which even most of the other "judo trolls" think is ridiculous. As somebody who defends judo from inaccurate attacks on here, I often thought individuals like you and pdeking do more harm than good to the judo with your constant exagerrations about judo's supremacy. "
when have I ever gotten involved in BJJ/Judo debate? NEVER. This is the first time that I've talked this extensively about Judo.
I defended yoshida against BS and then I started to defend Ogawa. THAT's IT. It's not about judo. It's about respect for people that put everything on the line to put on a show. To assume a professional's fight is worked is the ultimate slap in the face.
I honestly think that Judo will not be that big of a force in MMA. I've said it before. Look at Yoshida. He hasn't shown AMAZING submission skills. that guy fights like a schoolchild. Headlocks, smothers in both fights with Tamura and silva. He was a one trick pony with that gi choke, but once people figured that out, it was hard for him to mount an offense.
And ogawa. the biggest joke of Judo. This guy just cant fight. Look at the ogawa/goodridge and ogawa/sataake. that's a slap in the face for judo and I agree.
I personally think combat submission wrestling w/ a base in judo is the best. That's where people like Gomi, Sudo, Uno etc. come from.