Fedor's Legacy

Underground
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Sagiv Lapkin <br />2) He recently lost to Werdum, a fighter who couldn't make it in the UFC (yes, this was undoubtedly a fluke and Fedor would win a rematch)



Werdum was cut due to contract disputes, not because he couldn't "make it". When I last checked he was only 2-2 with losses to Arlovski and JDS.
Roy Nelson also has losses to JDS and Arlovski so can he make it in the UFC?

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nobones - 
TimeToCrush - LOL @ Fedor not fighting top competition within the last few years. Since 2008 these are the fights he's signed up for:



Sylvia (top 5)

Couture* (top 5)

Arlovski (top 5)

Barnett* (top 5)

Rogers (top 10)

Werdum (top 10)



*No fault of his own those fights didn't materialize



So who else at heavyweight has signed up to fight more top competition in the last couple years than Fedor?



People really are fucking dumb. There's no heavyweight that comes close to his legacy.


You're fucking dumb.  The Couture fight not materializing was completely his fault.



 I thought the Fedor /Couture fight didn't happen because of contractual obligations. Didn't Couture ask Dana to take a fight against Fedor, and has always wanted to, but BLAF has made sure through contracts as well as sheer willpower to never let "his" Captain America get destroyed by Captain Russia ?

I thought Couture would've been sued for everything he owned for taking this fight. Didn't he have to settle to avoid that ? 

Hell' there are quite a few fighters in BLAF controlled UFC history that have been sued by the Zuffa , and have had to settle to avoid bankruptcy.

As far as I know, Zuffa holds the deck when it comes to fighters wanting to fight the best outside the UFC's puppetstrings.



As far as Fedors legacy, he fought under a variety of rules over the last decade, and dominated opponents in high intensity, highly anticipated mma bouts, all skilled athletes, 90% of which had significant size advantage.

In all reality, he holds no worse than a 31-1 record. That's incredible in this sport.

Until his most recent loss to long time world class fighter Fabricio Werdum, he had never been defeated.

Every fighter who has faced him has the ultimate respect for him and his skills. As a man, I've never heard a single story of anyone ever meeting the guy with anything even partially negative to say. He's the epitomy of respect, sportsmanship, and class. You couldn't build a better ambassador for the sport.

He's universally revered as an icon of mma to anyone that knows mma.



If he doesn't go down as the greatest fighter in mma history, then I can't acknowledge that particular source as unbiased, or legitimate.



 

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So orcus, are you now suggesting that there is something wrong with "retroactively downgrading" opponents?


lol @ trying to turn this around. Did you read my post, dipshit? I'm asking why YOU retards can do that, but whenever I or anyone else tries to look at how good someone like Coleman was objectively, it's "revisionism" and reprehensible. I'm asking YOU to tell ME what is acceptable here. Surely you ought to be calling out Helwig and making a 3-page post citing MMADumbFuck.com's rankings to point out why he is a scumbag for retroactively downgrading Randy, Brock, etc? I mean, since you're not a complete hypocrite and are deeply, deeply concerned with MMA historical accuracy and context?

It is especially hilarious given that we are looking at how good guys like Coleman or Sylvia were looking AT THE TIME they fought Fedor, whereas Helwig was downgrading guys who were actually looking very good AT THE TIME we wanted to see them fight Fedor, and have only been "exposed" later.

Btw, Randy, Mir, and Carwin were all big, meaningful, top-ranked fights at the time for Brock [although Randy by then had technically dropped for inactivity] - except by your OWN standard of measure, wouldn't all those guys now be ripe for the SAME kind of retroactive downgrading that you particularly espouse and specialize in?


Stick to your spreadsheet, you fucking moron, and don't even try to discuss actual fight/fighter analysis, because you clearly have no understanding whatsoever of anything that you can't plug into cell A4. YES, many of them ARE downgraded now in terms of how good we should estimate Brock is for beating them. I would not include Carwin on that list at the moment because Brock is still the only person who has beaten him.

even stated at the time, repeatedly, that Sylvia had looked better than EVER in his last fight against Nog


Use your magic search powers and show me my post where I said Sylvia looked better than ever in that fight. I can't imagine why I would have thought that.

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Again, let me know all these HWs that can "put it all together".


Guys like Carwin, Nelson, Gonzaga (despite his horrible inconsistency), Mir (ditto), Alistair, Bigfoot, Cain, Brock, Barnett, and doubtless more that I'm forgetting can drop or KTFO of guys standing or take them down and submit and/or pound them, and are at least sub-savvy enough that it is not a foregone conclusion that they'll be submitted if they go to the ground with someone who has any sub skill.

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orcus - 
Again, let me know all these HWs that can "put it all together".


Guys like Carwin, Nelson, Gonzaga (despite his horrible inconsistency), Mir (ditto), Alistair, Bigfoot, Cain, Brock, Barnett, and doubtless more that I'm forgetting can drop or KTFO of guys standing or take them down and submit and/or pound them, and are at least sub-savvy enough that it is not a foregone conclusion that they'll be submitted if they go to the ground with someone who has any sub skill.



LMFAO. Next time you insult whistleblower about talking about rankings instead of analysing fights/fighters you can officially STFU.

Your "guys" at HW who can "put it all together" are:

Carwin - Big, good wrestler, heavy hands, completely untested on the ground (and only indication was bad when he tapped to a side choke)

Brock - Big, good wrestler, poor standup, Terrible reaction to strikes, Little evidence of any great submission skills.

Nelson - Great groundwork (although not been show too much lately), Heavy hands, Terrible takedowns, poor athleticism (and this isn't my opinion based on his look as Fedor looks like my dad but has incredible explosiveness and athleticism)

Gonzaga - "Horribly inconsistant" as you have stated.

Mir - "ditto" as you have stated.

Overeem - Good grappling, good striking, completely untested at the top level at HW.

Rather than labour the point further I think we can all see how "well rounded" the fighters are that you have listed as being able to "put it all together".

Maybe next time you should do some spreadsheets and talk about rankings as your analysis of fighters fucking sucks shit.

Oh wait you can't do that either since it wouldn't back your anti-Fedor vendetta.

Maybe just stick to shouting out "SHUT UP, JUST SHUT UP, GO HOME" like the fucking mong you are.

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Rather than labour the point further I think we can all see how "well rounded" the fighters are that you have listed as being able to "put it all together".


I didn't say that, retard. I said: these guys "can drop or KTFO of guys standing or take them down and submit and/or pound them, and are at least sub-savvy enough that it is not a foregone conclusion that they'll be submitted if they go to the ground with someone who has any sub skill." Instead of arguing that point, you posted other weaknesses they may have, that don't in any way contradict what I said, and acted like you deserve a trophy.

Maybe just stick to shouting out "SHUT UP, JUST SHUT UP, GO HOME" like the fucking mong you are.


lol, you believe everything you read posted on internet forums, without using a shred of common sense. I guess that says all we need to know about you. And oh yeah, you just joined a few months ago, which means either a) you're a troll who's been banned and came back with a new name, or b) you're some dope who just heard about MMA when Kimbo was on TUF.

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The Sugar Ray of MMA!

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orcus - 
Rather than labour the point further I think we can all see how "well rounded" the fighters are that you have listed as being able to "put it all together".


I didn't say that, retard. I said: these guys "can drop or KTFO of guys standing or take them down and submit and/or pound them, and are at least sub-savvy enough that it is not a foregone conclusion that they'll be submitted if they go to the ground with someone who has any sub skill." Instead of arguing that point, you posted other weaknesses they may have, that don't in any way contradict what I said, and acted like you deserve a trophy.


So in what way is that being able to "put it all together"?
So basically you've just admitted you are such a fucking moron that you didn't answer his direct quote with examples that fulfill it but instead listed guys who can "drop or KTFO out of guys standing or take them down...etc"
That isn't "putting it ALL together". The key word you are missing is "ALL" you fucking dipshit.

orcus -
lol, you believe everything you read posted on internet forums, without using a shred of common sense. I guess that says all we need to know about you. And oh yeah, you just joined a few months ago, which means either a) you're a troll who's been banned and came back with a new name, or b) you're some dope who just heard about MMA when Kimbo was on TUF.


Yeah fucknut. Those are the only possible options. You obviously know everything about the universe and everything.

You just got owned of "some dope who just heard about MMA when Kimbo was on TUF".

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That isn't "putting it ALL together". The key word you are missing is "ALL" you fucking dipshit.


lol, I'm not missing anything. I listed big guys who are dangerous standing and dangerous on the ground, are able to get it to the ground if they want or need to, and are certainly no more likely to be submitted instantly when it hits the ground than guys like Mark Hunt and Brett Rogers are.

Is there some rule that you can only respond to someone with exact 1:1 matching of their words?

Yeah fucknut. Those are the only possible options. You obviously know everything about the universe and everything.


Well, one thing I know is that you're a total moron who thinks that a) I spent thousands of dollars flying to Japan for the express purpose of yelling at Fedor, because I was sooo full of hate toward him (as indicated by my 20 page argument with EvilYoshida AFTER that time in which I argued that Fedor was #1 p4p) and b) I for some baffling reason told the forum about it or somehow the forum magically found out about it -- maybe in that youtube video the guy yelling is holding a giant sign up that says "my screenname is orcus and I hate Fedor"?

So we've established you're mentally deficient. Why don't you clue me in to the real reason your join date is August? Let me guess -- like the other trolls and idiots, you "forgot your old password so just made a new account".

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orcus - 
That isn't "putting it ALL together". The key word you are missing is "ALL" you fucking dipshit.


lol, I'm not missing anything. I listed big guys who are dangerous standing and dangerous on the ground, are able to get it to the ground if they want or need to, and are certainly no more likely to be submitted instantly when it hits the ground than guys like Mark Hunt and Brett Rogers are.

Is there some rule that you can only respond to someone with exact 1:1 matching of their words?

Yeah fucknut. Those are the only possible options. You obviously know everything about the universe and everything.


Well, one thing I know is that you're a total moron who thinks that a) I spent thousands of dollars flying to Japan for the express purpose of yelling at Fedor, because I was sooo full of hate toward him (as indicated by my 20 page argument with EvilYoshida AFTER that time in which I argued that Fedor was #1 p4p) and b) I for some baffling reason told the forum about it or somehow the forum magically found out about it -- maybe in that youtube video the guy yelling is holding a giant sign up that says "my screenname is orcus and I hate Fedor"?

So we've established you're mentally deficient. Why don't you clue me in to the real reason your join date is August? Let me guess -- like the other trolls and idiots, you "forgot your old password so just made a new account".


So you still haven't listed an single example of this mythical "new generation" of HW that can "put it all together" so much better than the HW fighters of Fedors generation. You haven't listed anyone who has more right to credibility than Arlovski or Sylvia for their time.

You simply listed a bunch of recently active HW fighters.

This is the first and only account I've ever had on here. It is the only MMA forum I have ever posted on. I started posting here after I got an iphone and found the app. I am not a troll and you can check with guys like DanTheWolfman if I am 'real'.

The whole thread recently on the UG where plenty of guys on here confirmed it was you and had a long discussion about you and your motivations probably swayed my opinion of you.

However, your quickness in addressing everyone who disagrees with you as a moron, idiot or retard because they do not subscribe to your Fedor hate proves that other peoples opinions of what a complete scumbag you are hold true.




The facts remain, at the time (not on the UG as I wasn't here, but in real life) all the Fedor detractors were saying Arlovski was both worthy, credible and likely to beat Fedor.

Likewise the same people heralded Sylvia as a nightmare matchup for Fedor, a man Fedor had been ducking and the man who would prove Fedor as overrated by beating him.

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That's a lie. You use to post on Cage Warriors as Eric Tuna.

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Oh and I didn't say you spent thousands to shout at Fedor.

I've been to watch events in Japan in the past. I spent the money to go watch the event. The results of the event don't change that. Even if a fighter I liked got beat.

When Shogun lost to Coleman in Saitama, if I had stood up and told Coleman "You suck, fuck off baldy" does that mean I spent the money JUST to do that?

No. It would've made me a classless prick with an overinflated opinion of myself. But I didn't do that. I simply acknowledged a freak accident had resulted in my favourite fighter losing.

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WALES1 - That's a lie. You use to post on Cage Warriors as Eric Tuna.


Okay buddy. You clearly know better than me. LOL

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Anyway, get back to the thread where you have now dick tucked after you said I knew fuck all about MMA.

I know it's you Eric. You stalk me on here like you did on CW and you still no fuck all about MMA.

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My name isn't Eric and you have some kind of weird obsession with him if you honestly think I'm somebody called Eric stalking you around internet forums.

If you are from Wales then it kind of explains it. LOL

Or maybe you are trolling me for making you look stupid for suggesting Brock would GnP Arlovski and Sylvia. He'd be just as likely to sub or decision them (if he beat them at all as I think Sylvia could possibly punch him into cartwheels)

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You taking about the thread why you stated that Randy was KO by Brock standing and that Brock only has one G&P victory?

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So you still haven't listed an single example of this mythical "new generation" of HW that can "put it all together" so much better than the HW fighters of Fedors generation. You haven't listed anyone who has more right to credibility than Arlovski or Sylvia for their time.


Who's talking about "right to credibility"? Is Sylvia able to take a fight down if he is outclassed standing? If so, is he dangerous with GnP or submissions on the ground? Has Arlovski demonstrated anything that should make us think he would be willing or able to put Fedor on his back? We get it -- Fedor wins when he can dictate where the fight goes, or when he fights someone who can outwrestle him but has no ground ability at all. The guys I listed don't fit that description, and there are more out there. It's why I'm looking forward to the Bigfoot fight, even though Bigfoot has no big wins -- Silva is dangerous in both areas, and can contest with Fedor as far as deciding where the fight takes place. That describes almost nobody that Fedor has fought in his entire career, and why I was always hoping for the Barnett fight, and why I am looking forward to the hopefully eventual Overeem fight.

Personally, I think all fans should WANT the #1 to fight the guys who are the most deserving and MOST DANGEROUS. Rather than defend lesser opponents and get all bent out of shape whenever anyone else is less than happy about it.

The whole thread recently on the UG where plenty of guys on here confirmed it was you


lol, really, they "confirmed" it? Again, how do you think they would be able to do that? Can you posit a plausible scenario in which someone is so anti- a given fighter that they fly around the world for the sole purpose of heckling him, and that that person then tells an internet forum about it because he is so proud of it? And yet the same person at all other times DENIES being anti- the fighter in question?

However, your quickness in addressing everyone who disagrees with you as a moron, idiot or retard because they do not subscribe to your Fedor hate proves that other peoples opinions of what a complete scumbag you are hold true.


Fedorblower is a moron because he thinks all mma discussion begins and ends with the rankings generated by MMA websites, rankings written by guys who are no more knowledgeable or un-biased than any random poster on this or any other forum.

You are a moron because you think I flew around the world to heckle Fedor and then told everybody about it. Seriously, how is that not moronic?

The facts remain, at the time (not on the UG as I wasn't here, but in real life) all the Fedor detractors were saying Arlovski was both worthy, credible and likely to beat Fedor.


You are correct in that everyone, including me, thought that was a good matchup. Same for Sylvia. Although I will point out that I am typically classified as a "Fedor detractor" and I picked neither to beat him. So? That doesn't change the fact that they were neither the most deserving nor the most dangerous opponents of the period -- which is who the #1 in the world should ideally be fighting -- nor does beating them tell us that Fedor IS (not WAS) the best, nor does it tell us how Fedor would do against other kinds of fighters who are more able to dictate where the fight takes place.

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orcus - 

Who's talking about "right to credibility"? Is Sylvia able to take a fight down if he is outclassed standing? If so, is he dangerous with GnP or submissions on the ground? Has Arlovski demonstrated anything that should make us think he would be willing or able to put Fedor on his back? We get it -- Fedor wins when he can dictate where the fight goes, or when he fights someone who can outwrestle him but has no ground ability at all. The guys I listed don't fit that description, and there are more out there. It's why I'm looking forward to the Bigfoot fight, even though Bigfoot has no big wins -- Silva is dangerous in both areas, and can contest with Fedor as far as deciding where the fight takes place. That describes almost nobody that Fedor has fought in his entire career, and why I was always hoping for the Barnett fight, and why I am looking forward to the hopefully eventual Overeem fight.


Let me begin by thanking you for the measured response.

Fedor has beaten the best strikers by out striking them (Crocop).
Fedor has beatenone of the best MMA grapplers on the ground (Nog).
Granted he has now lost 1 on the ground to another of the best MMA grapplers.

Sylvia is no more/less capable of "putting it all together" than Brock.
Would someone with with masterful groundwork have done better than Sylvia in that fight? Sylvia was destroyed on his feet (ie. in his own arena)

orcus - Personally, I think all fans should WANT the #1 to fight the guys who are the most deserving and MOST DANGEROUS. Rather than defend lesser opponents and get all bent out of shape whenever anyone else is less than happy about it.


Agreed. But the politics prevent it. I, for one, am massively pissed off that Fedor isn't fighting more.

orcus -
lol, really, they "confirmed" it? Again, how do you think they would be able to do that? Can you posit a plausible scenario in which someone is so anti- a given fighter that they fly around the world for the sole purpose of heckling him, and that that person then tells an internet forum about it because he is so proud of it? And yet the same person at all other times DENIES being anti- the fighter in question?


Ok well I'm only working with the info I have. Are you saying that wasn't you who shouted out to Fedor?

orcus -

Fedorblower is a moron because he thinks all mma discussion begins and ends with the rankings generated by MMA websites, rankings written by guys who are no more knowledgeable or un-biased than any random poster on this or any other forum.

You are a moron because you think I flew around the world to heckle Fedor and then told everybody about it. Seriously, how is that not moronic?


I can assure you, and I suspect that you can garner from my posts that I am not a 'moron'. whistleblower is very good and knowledgeable poster IMO. I agree with a lot he says and his insights from another thread about the history of Pride impressed me a lot. If you disagree that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But that is between you and him, not me.

orcus -
You are correct in that everyone, including me, thought that was a good matchup. Same for Sylvia. Although I will point out that I am typically classified as a "Fedor detractor" and I picked neither to beat him. So? That doesn't change the fact that they were neither the most deserving nor the most dangerous opponents of the period -- which is who the #1 in the world should ideally be fighting -- nor does beating them tell us that Fedor IS (not WAS) the best, nor does it tell us how Fedor would do against other kinds of fighters who are more able to dictate where the fight takes place.


Rankings are often wrong. They had Brock at #1 for a while and even after being shown up he still held #2 spot. Arlovski and Sylvia were the best options at the time they occured.

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I remember why you should never post in a Fedor thread.

There are some good points being made here and I even got a attitude change against some of the fighters discussed here.. But man all the whining about "Zuffa chills" and "Pride nuthuggers" is getting irritating.

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Fedor has beaten the best strikers by out striking them (Crocop).
Fedor has beatenone of the best MMA grapplers on the ground (Nog).
Granted he has now lost 1 on the ground to another of the best MMA grapplers.

Sylvia is no more/less capable of "putting it all together" than Brock.
Would someone with with masterful groundwork have done better than Sylvia in that fight?


Someone with masterful groundwork would likely have taken Fedor down and not tried to stand with him. Also, let's not act like a 30 second stoppage is typical for Fedor.

The point is that of Fedor's opponents who have tried to take him down, very few -- in fact, maybe none -- have been KO'd before they could do so. So the next question is, would they be submitted if they did so? Well, Fedor has only submitted Coleman and HMC from his back, and they have no grappling at all, and guys like Hunt and Rogers escaped his subs. The guys I listed train every day with stellar grapplers at Jackson's, AKA, Black House, etc -- it would be silly to assume they are the same level of sub-savvy as the almost comically un-evolved Hammer House and HMC. The guys I listed have subs of their own, or heavy GnP.

In other words, they are very dangerous opponents for Fedor (or anyone, especially anyone who is not a superior/stronger wrestler), they are the type that makes up much of the upper level of heavyweights, and yet he has never fought anyone like them. Hence why I and others don't think Fedor's past wins over guys who in no way resemble this type are necessarily indicative of his being the best fighter among them -- despite the fact that he indisputably has the best record.

Agreed. But the politics prevent it. I, for one, am massively pissed off that Fedor isn't fighting more.


Okay. So, regardless of why the fights have not happened -- whether you feel it is pure circumstance, timing, injury, etc, or that Fedor's management is protecting their investment -- the fact remains that it is frustrating and disappointing.

Are you saying that wasn't you who shouted out to Fedor?


Of course it wasn't me.

I can assure you, and I suspect that you can garner from my posts that I am not a 'moron'.


True, you are not coming across as a moron now.

whistleblower is very good and knowledgeable poster IMO.


He is certainly knowledgeable about his area of expertise, i.e., where websites and maybe a couple print publications ranked fighters at various times.

Rankings are often wrong


Which is why Fedorblower is a moron for thinking they should settle every debate about who is or was the best opponent.

Arlovski and Sylvia were the best options at the time they occured.


No, Barnett was. Even in an organization with only 3 heavies worth mentioning, Fedor did not fight the best/most dangerous one. Just like in Strikeforce.

Perhaps it's always pure coincidence and timing, and simply one bizarre coincidence after another that it only happens to Fedor, and in every organization he goes to.

In any case, if Arlovski and Sylvia were the best available options, that is because of where Fedor chose to sign. Again, just like Strikeforce. He signed with an organization whose highest ranked fighter, Werdum, was coming off a 30-second KO loss that ended his 2-2 UFC run.