What's worse, getting trolled or agreeing with a troll?
I agree with orcus, and I'll go one step further and agree with Joe Rogan...NO MORE STAND-UPS! If the fight is a boring lay-n-pray, then so be it. At the very least, it will be a true contest and not left to a referee's discretion. Like Joe has said numerous times, it's up to the fighter to learn how to counter the wrestling.
This doesn't mean that there will be no more exciting fights, btw. So, will the no-stand-up rule change affect the final product and lead to fighters fighting not to lose? Of course it might, but this can be countered through the use of contracts that have clearly defined financial incentives for finishes, imo. Also, if a fighter reapeatedly employs a lot of L-n-P, the MMA org will always have the option to decide if they want to tender him/her a contract for future comtests.
dope-a-rope - I agree with orcus, and I'll go one step further and agree with Joe Rogan...NO MORE STAND-UPS! If the fight is a boring lay-n-pray, then so be it. At the very least, it will be a true contest and not left to a referee's discretion. Like Joe has said numerous times, it's up to the fighter to learn how to counter the wrestling.
This doesn't mean that there will be no more exciting fights, btw. So, will the no-stand-up rule change affect the final product and lead to fighters fighting not to lose? Of course it might, but this can be countered through the use of contracts that have clearly defined financial incentives for finishes, imo. Also, if a fighter reapeatedly employs a lot of L-n-P, the MMA org will always have the option to decide if they want to tender him/her a contract for future comtests.
while I understand what you are saying, I think this is completely unrealistic... people have to accept that with the UFC at least, it's a business, not a sport... they couldn't give a shit about preserving the sport and deciding a true winner... they want entertainment, ratings, and PPV buys, bottom line...
and like the MLB, NHL, NBA, and NFL, they are going to tweak the rules to engineer the best chance of producing the most entertaining fights... all the orgs do it because they all rely on the almighty dollar to thrive...
and it's too confusing and unrealistic to design the rules so that a fighter can consistently win, and in turn get let go by the org cause he's too effective winning within their rules...
they simply will change the rules, and it's going to happen because more and more people are becoming sick of the manner in which dominant wrestlers are winning today... that's just the way I see it...
For all the talk about how the ring and Pride rules would change everything for the better, Nog vs Ricco is about the only example I can think of in Pride where a wrestler able to impose his will without showing any real ability to end the fight or do significant damage ended up losing the decision -- and that was hugely controversial even here.
Horn vs Prangley in the UFC was similar.
How often was Arona stood up in his fights? Or yellow carded? Or kneed or soccer kicked to death off a shot? He made it to the #1 spot doing exactly what those mean ol' weightcutting wrestlers in the UFC do, and he didn't need a cage or "watered-down rules" to do it.
Also hilarious, of course, is that for every person saying the sport is being ruined by rules and Zuffa policies that encourage just-win-baby decisions, there is another saying the sport is being ruined by rules and Zuffa policies that encourage standing and wanging. And no doubt often both these complaints come from the same people, depending on what fight they saw last and whether or not the guy they liked won or lost.
orcus dropping nuclear logic bombs
also in regards to diaz. he caught a leg kick and had a beautifdul take down. He took what the other fighter gave him. it wasn't like nick one one dimensional. He had nice exchanges on feet, nice take down, and anice finish.
although it seemed like he def wanted to go to the ground after getting tagged a few times on the chin. impressive performance by nick
Pride had plenty of grappling oriented decisions.
Fedor vs Schilt, Minowa vs Baroni 2, all of Kikutas fights, Horn vs Yvel, Lister vs Arona
off the top of my head
sawdusk - while I understand what you are saying, I think this is completely unrealistic... people have to accept that with the UFC at least, it's a business, not a sport... they couldn't give a shit about preserving the sport and deciding a true winner... they want entertainment, ratings, and PPV buys, bottom line...
and like the MLB, NHL, NBA, and NFL, they are going to tweak the rules to engineer the best chance of producing the most entertaining fights... all the orgs do it because they all rely on the almighty dollar to thrive...
and it's too confusing and unrealistic to design the rules so that a fighter can consistently win, and in turn get let go by the org cause he's too effective winning within their rules...
they simply will change the rules, and it's going to happen because more and more people are becoming sick of the manner in which dominant wrestlers are winning today... that's just the way I see it...
You make excellent points, but consider this...
In the short term, yes, there would be some confusion seeing a figher be successful within the rules, and then not seeing said fighter again after the contract is up, but this would only be short-term, imo. Once it is established that the business model (not the rules, mind you) supports/rewards fighters that go for finishes, the BUSINESS of the MMA world would change and adapt with it.
I don't see it as "punishing" a fighter by not renewing their contract, but rather "rewarding" the ones that help to make the product better. Over time, I feel the fighters would totally understand this and adjust their game accordingly.
I agree with you that the goal is to make profit, and there really is no perfect solution to the current situation. But continually changing the rules can lead to a watering down of the very CONCEPT of a "fight", imo, which in turn can turn-off potental viewers.
Without the grappling in MMA, what would MMA be? Why wasn't kickboxing more successful as a spectator sport if people just want to see the KO? I feel it's because we still (as fans) harken back to the early UFC (SEG brand) and tell ourselves that this is as close to a real "fight" as we're capable of seeing. Even fans that didn't watch the early days of MMA still desire to watch a true "fight" moreso than an athletic contest like kickboxing (again, I realize that MMA isn't a REAL fight, but it's as close as we can get without someone getting prosecuted).
But, thats just my opinion :)
MushroomHead -
Most people do have a fighter they would prefer win, but most would rather see fights finished than 3 or 5 round snoozefests.
That's ultimately the base of these arguments- people hate seeing manhugging snoozefests.
I'm honestly really surprised that you had to have this explained to you...
I actually love to see 3 or 5 round fights that demonstrate a skill. I feel kinda robbed when a fight is over in the first minute because of quick KO or submission. I enjoy those fights too, but I always enjoy the battles more.
dope-a-rope -
You make excellent points, but consider this...
In the short term, yes, there would be some confusion seeing a figher be successful within the rules, and then not seeing said fighter again after the contract is up, but this would only be short-term, imo. Once it is established that the business model (not the rules, mind you) supports/rewards fighters that go for finishes, the BUSINESS of the MMA world would change and adapt with it.
I don't see it as "punishing" a fighter by not renewing their contract, but rather "rewarding" the ones that help to make the product better. Over time, I feel the fighters would totally understand this and adjust their game accordingly.
I agree with you that the goal is to make profit, and there really is no perfect solution to the current situation. But continually changing the rules can lead to a watering down of the very CONCEPT of a "fight", imo, which in turn can turn-off potental viewers.
Without the grappling in MMA, what would MMA be? Why wasn't kickboxing more successful as a spectator sport if people just want to see the KO? I feel it's because we still (as fans) harken back to the early UFC (SEG brand) and tell ourselves that this is as close to a real "fight" as we're capable of seeing. Even fans that didn't watch the early days of MMA still desire to watch a true "fight" moreso than an athletic contest like kickboxing (again, I realize that MMA isn't a REAL fight, but it's as close as we can get without someone getting prosecuted).
But, thats just my opinion :)
it's an interesting argument, I'd love to know if dana and co. are discussing it...
I just don't think it would behoove the UFC to purge their roster of winners... you'd be potentially letting go valuable talent that under modified rules could still thrive...
the goal should be the best fighters fighting under conditions that produce entertaining, yet, competitively equal fights... every sport goes through these growing pains, but imagine if the NFL's solution was to let go of DBs that played the bump and run too well...
imagine the UFC letting go of kos, gsp, rashad, fitch, etc... it just wouldn't make sense, to me... and I'm not convinced financially enticing them to abandon all their training and instincts is going to work...
I just think it would be easier and more realistic to a fighter to adjust to rules than a subjective evaluation of their excitement level or ability to finish...
then again, if the PPV buys don't dip, maybe all this speculation won't add up to anything...
sawdusk - ...imagine the UFC letting go of kos, gsp, rashad, fitch, etc... it just wouldn't make sense, to me... and I'm not convinced financially enticing them to abandon all their training and instincts is going to work...
I just think it would be easier and more realistic to a fighter to adjust to rules than a subjective evaluation of their excitement level or ability to finish...
Damn you and your logic ;)
Here's another way to look at it though...why do you suppose kos, gsp, rashad, fitch are fighting they do? Could it be that the current business model of MMA supports it (wins = potentially more fights/money)? If the business model changes (finishing fights = potentially more fights/money), don't you think that they are talented enough to adapt along with it? I know I do.
I agree that the subjectivity aspect sucks, but its already there if you think about it. There have been several successful (in terms of wins and losses) fighters in the UFC who weren't re-signed due to the fact that the fighter in question and the UFC didn't see eye-to-eye on said fighters value (Matt Lindland, for example). By actually putting stipulations in the contracts for finishing fights, at least things would be a little bit clearer all the way around. Maybe?
"Most people do have a fighter they would prefer win, but most would rather see fights finished than 3 or 5 round snoozefests."
Sure, but that has nothing to do with the rules or environment, as evidenced by most of Arona's wins in Pride, and other snoozfests like Barnett/Crocop II, Nakamura/Randleman, etc.
>Further, I think you are being disingenuous. Where were the complaints when Randy laid on Sylvia for five rounds? The whole arena was on its feet cheering as the final seconds counted down. Where were the threads about how the rules needed to change or we need a ring?
Did people say Pride needed to switch to a cage after Arona held down Wanderlei and became #1? How about after the rematch when Arona lay on his back while Wand kicked his thighs for 20 minutes?
whatever... not going to read all this BS
we do really need some rule changes though and new weight divisions and better judges etc...
A short list of the rules that really suck:
1) a fighter on his back cannot upkick to the face
2) if you are still in a 3 point stance (hand on the mat) you cannot be kneed to the face
3) the whole elbow angle crap... either have elbows or don't
i can think of others, but those are the worst ones
also need a SHW division... oh and Pride needs to come back :)
Anyone who honestly believes that Dana is considering a rule change or thinking about getting rid of the cage needs to ask themselves why he's courting Shields. If he was truly tired of wrestlers coming in and "exploiting" the rules, he wouldn't be bringing in another guy who's likely to do exactly the same thing.
I can't even imagine the size of the hard on Coker would get if Dana listened to the advice being given in all these threads and decided to cut Georges, Randy, Rashad, Fitch, Guida, etc. for not meeting some arbitrary definition of exciting created by fans upset that their favorite fighter lost.
orcus - waaah, my boy got tooled -- this sport sucks; or at the very least, we need to change the rules or change the scoring system or (LOL) replace the cage with a ring.
Let's go back to a ring and stick with forbidding knees and kicks to a downed opponent, that way Sakuraba might still be the best. Remember how he used to "game the system" by turtling because his opponents couldn't do anything to him in that position? Wonder why EvilYoshida doesn't have a problem with that. But god forbid a western wrestler puts a hand down momentarily to avoid getting kneed in the face.
You people are retarded. Find a new sport to watch. You will never get a ring, wrestlers will continue to win, and your old heroes will continue to be left behind.
orcus - waaah, my boy got tooled -- this sport sucks; or at the very least, we need to change the rules or change the scoring system or (LOL) replace the cage with a ring.VTFU
Let's go back to a ring and stick with forbidding knees and kicks to a downed opponent, that way Sakuraba might still be the best. Remember how he used to "game the system" by turtling because his opponents couldn't do anything to him in that position? Wonder why EvilYoshida doesn't have a problem with that. But god forbid a western wrestler puts a hand down momentarily to avoid getting kneed in the face.
You people are retarded. Find a new sport to watch. You will never get a ring, wrestlers will continue to win, and your old heroes will continue to be left behind.