The one place you don't want to wear a gi is against a BJJ fighter who's _not_ wearing one. Now you're in a grappling match, covered with handles, against an opponent who's sweaty and slippery, and who knows how to use the gi against you.
I learned this the hard way in my first BJJ tournament. Once I stopped going gi- against no-gi, I started winning matches. Haven't seen the fight, but it sounds like Yoshida just learned the same lesson.
for me, the reason why i think royce's not wearing the gi was rather cowardice is becuase of the shit he has talked in the past about how he would ALWAYS wear a gi.
flat out, royce went against & outright abanadoned something he has held highly in his own life and success as an MMA fighter. he also did so without giving any forewarning to his opponent (as far as i am aware).
the man built his entire career on fighting with the gi eventhough he was constantly frowned upon for it. he constantly said it was the highest showing of technical ability, etc.. he made it seem as if wearing the gi is a badge of honor of some sort.
none of these things can be denied. so, the question becomes simply one of why did he go this route? was it simply for the W..? if so, thats a true shame cause he didnt get one.
-resnick
Josh, I agree totally.
Well, I've noticed that the Gracies are magnanimous in victory, but that they don't take defeat very well. I think Royce wanted a W here pretty badly.
There's nothing technically unfair about ditching the gi at the last moment, but it's not exactly sporting. Especially when this is supposed to be a rematch of an earlier gi-match, and the whole point of fighting Yoshida was to recreate the Helio-Kimura gi-match of yore.
However, as the Gracies always say, "BJJ is not a sport."
Scyth: Well, I've noticed that the Gracies are magnanimous in victory, but that they don't take defeat very well. I think Royce wanted a W here pretty badly. I think it's a Machismo Culture thing...
"JCT, The point is by not wearing the gi he was admitting he was not as good as Yoshida is with the gi, aye?"
Not necessarily. All it says is that he thinks him not wearing a gi will be an advantage to him, in other words Yoshida is not very good against a no gi opponent.
For example, if you and your oponent are both good at judo, but you felt you had a big advantage in boxing, even if you felt you were also better at judo, the smart strategy would be to use your boxing advantage which is bigger.
"for me, the reason why i think royce's not wearing the gi was rather cowardice is becuase of the shit he has talked in the past about how he would ALWAYS wear a gi."
Not really. He's said he wears the gi because he trains in the gi and he felt it was to his advantage. I've seen interviews from him where he's said he'd consider fighting without the gi. This is mma, fighting without the gi is about as cowardly as Sakuraba not following Royler to the ground just because Royler waved him to come to the ground.
"he also did so without giving any forewarning to his opponent (as far as i am aware)."
LOL, so now he has to warn his opponent the tactics that he plans to use?
"the man built his entire career on fighting with the gi eventhough he was constantly frowned upon for it. he constantly said it was the highest showing of technical ability, etc.. he made it seem as if wearing the gi is a badge of honor of some sort."
I'd like to see quotes of this. I also don't remember too many people frowning upon him for wearing his gi in the UFCs. Lots of guys were doing it back then.
From http://bjj.org/interviews/tnfc/rg102297.html:
"ME: When you do comeback are you going to continue to wear a gi?
RG: I will make that decision when the time comes for the fight, I'm not sure right now."
From http://www.sherdog.com/interviews/gracie_royce_02/gracie_02.htm (dated 10/22/97):
"Mike Sloan: When you do return, will you come down to the Octagon and fight in your gi?
Royce Gracie: Maybe (chuckles). It depends on who I'm fighting, then yes, I'll probably wear the gi."
"There's nothing technically unfair about ditching the gi at the last moment, but it's not exactly sporting. Especially when this is supposed to be a rematch of an earlier gi-match, and the whole point of fighting Yoshida was to recreate the Helio-Kimura gi-match of yore."
This wasn't under the same rules as their last match. If you want to use that logic, then it was really unsportsman like to be striking his head when they were on the ground.
Not at all. The addition of striking was an agreed-upon difference. Both fighters expected and prepared for that divergence from the conditions of the first match.
I'm not saying Royce cheated, by the way. Obviously he didn't, except with the apparently intentional groin kick. Yoshida should have been prepared for a gi-less opponent (since the rules, if not expectation, indicated he might face such an opponent). It seems he wasn't. You snooze, you lose.
Good points but if wore the gi and pulled the W I would really, truly have been amazed and impressed. Royce fighting without a gi was a huge first. I know you see what I mean.
I would love to see another match-up.
BTW JCT I like how you write and how you reason.
Im tired of people complaining about how Yoshida was heavier, The Gracies always choose opponents that are Heavier, if they lose then it was clearly the weight advantage and if they win it was a clear sign that superior Gracie technique beat the bigger opponent.
"PRIDE SP - So far they have showed a bunch of Yoshida/Royce hype. Yoshida is 100 kg. Royce is 87. That's about a 30 pound weight advantage for Yoshida." Taken from mmaweekly play by play.
Royce fought at 191 pnds. More than his usual 175-180 pnd. range, but not near 100 Kg. Yes, the picture shows the kick on the thigh, not groin. Another picture shows Mr. Hidehiko milking it, as if it was though.
JCT is the most respectful BJJ guy I have seen in a long time. lol
"Also, I wish Royce elected to wear the gi for that truly would have been more interesting to see a classic mma fight between two great jacket fighters."
Osaekomi, I agree with you. I wanted to see a contrast of style between the two if any. I'm a little disapppointed. It makes you wonder about the Renzo v Spjikers fight. Spjikers wore a gi, Renzo didn't. I think the fighters should both be gi or no gi. I prefer gi because I do judo and wouldn't mind picking up some tips. I guess look out for real good newaza men.
Yoshida has to change his strategy. Actually, he should let his students do MMA. Why should he bother?
Have you guys ever did newaza when you had a gi on and your oppenant didn't? I have. Now, I have rank and training in judo and he didn't just rank and training in Shotokan. It made it harder and took longer to submit him but I did eventually. But with both Yoshida and Royce at about the same rank and training sort of speak both with gi's would have made a fairer and more interesting fight. The more I think about it the more I like Royler out of all the Gracies. I think he'd fight with or without a gi against anyone.
Guys, I have never posted in the Judo forum, so let me start by saying hello.
I am from Brazil, and I train in BJJ (no GJJ, BJJ).
That said, I would like to explain a few things:
1. BJJ x JUDO:
This is something that seems to live and breed on the internet, and nowhere else.
Wherever I have trained, and trust me, I trained in MANY places, there is a good relationship between Judokas and BJJ guys.
In my school, we often have Judokas coming in to improve their ground game, because they recognize that we are better at it - simply because that is what we focus on.
And we often go to Judo schools to improve our takedowns, because we recognize that they are better at it - simply because tat is what they focus on.
That, to me, is a no brainer, and that tought is shared by justa about every BJJ or Judo guy I know ( include here the likes of the Machados, Bustamante, Sperry, Royler, Rillion, Flavio Canto -judo-, Honorato -Judoka that broke Yoshida arm- etc.)
Heck, when I got my brown belt in BJJ, right next to my teacher was a 4 times Olympic coach of our national judo team...
Point is, whoever actually TRAINS, and I mean, trains seriously, usually have this point of view: Judo/Wrestling = great takedowns, BJJ=great ground game.
Now, lets talk about the internet and we have a totally different universe.
I, for one, often get into the argument and send provocations to the Judo guys, and, if that offends anyone, I sincerely apologize.
That does not mean in any way that I regard Judo as useless, I do not.
I train in Judo, BJJ, Boxing, and am a BB in Karate and Kenpo.
I am not Luke Beston, but I do respect all styles.
I tend to believe that most people here (and yes, I include King Yoshida and Quincy into this) feel the same way, but get carried away in the talk back game and type things that we/they dont really believe.
As for the whole Royce/Yoshida thing:
1.: Royce is NOT BJJ. He is a BJJ practicioner.
2.: Yoshida is NOT Judo. He is a Judo practicioner.
Therefore, a loss or win by one of them cannot equal to a demonstration of superiority of either art, agree?
I am fully aware that in a competition where only trowing and tripping was allowed, Judokas would clear the floor with BJJ guys.
They could loose a couple of matches, but that would be caused by the quality of the INDIVIDUALS envolved, and not the art itself.
On the other hand, one has to be really stupid not to see that in a ground and submission only event a group of BJJ practicioners would clean the floor with the Judo guys.
Same goes for Wrestling/Kickboxing/Muay Thay/Whatever if the rules of each competition was to be respected.
MMA is a totally different thing.
It does not, ideally, favors any style of competition.
I think that is pretty clear.
The BJJxJudoXWrestling thing is just for fun and games, and should stay only where it belongs, the martial arts forums. I have to believe that on the mat (the real mat, not the website) people are smart enough to know the advantages of each style.
From: Osaekomi
Mucho props to Royce Gracie for havING the common sense or lack of balls by finally shedding his gi.
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Osaekomi, it was a MMA competition not Judo or BJJ. Shedding the jacket was strategy, not lack of balls. He recognizes that judo takedowns rely heavily on the ability to grab the gi, and he removed that edge.
That is strategy, and I dont see anything wrong with it.
From: Scythrop
The one place you don't want to wear a gi is against a BJJ fighter who's _not_ wearing one. Now you're in a grappling match, covered with handles, against an opponent who's sweaty and slippery, and who knows how to use the gi against you.
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Sooo true!!!
I am sure we all could do so much better if we used this medium to exchange techniques and information.
I now I could use a LOT of help with my takedowns. Maybe I could even help you guys a little with ne-waza, who knows...
cariocajj, Absolutely. Thanks for posting.
"Basically, Royce Gracie won nothing and lost a ton of respect."
A quick visit to the mat with him would probably earn your respect...
thanks.
:)
And happy new year to all.
"He dominated the first round "
Kai, try watching a fight before commenting. You look less like a tool then...
Carioca,
Nice to have you in the forum. Your comments on the relationship between BJJ and Judo are appreciated.
I am surprised, though, that someone as fair-minded as you appear to be would defend Royce's intentional fouls. Royce may be a master grappler, but those tactics are pretty low.
They seem especially shady when you consider that Royce refused to fight unless judging had no influence on the match. It looks very much as if his strategy was to hurt his opponent early with illegal fouls that he knew couldn't be punished, and then finish him afterward.
As someone said on another thread, that's "pretty hard to admire," whatever respect Royce's skills might command.