Let me start this by saying that I am not starting this thread to talk shit on sport jiu-Jitsu. I love it and I really like doing it. My first love however is jiu-jitsu for self defense. I got into the art because I loved fighting and still to this day my first priority in doing jiu-jitsu is that it works in a real fight and I imagine doing it against a bigger stronger and more athletic opponent just to see what works. Chances are I may never have to use it again, God willing, but still I love to train with self defense in mind. Again, I do train sport jiu-Jitsu also and I realize how fun it is so I am not wanting to talk shit about it.
I do see people post stuff and say stuff about Gracie jiu-Jitsu though and that is what I want to reply to. I hear people talk about Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in a derogatory way mimicking it by saying it's "too deadly" for tournaments etc. They seem to think that because Rener and Ryron for example don't compete in tournaments that their jiu-Jitsu is inferior to the competitors who compete in tournaments. I will give you my take on this though and I believe it is something for other jiu-Jitsu guys to take the time to comprehend.
My take is this...
1) GRACIE JIU-JITSU WAS CREATED WITH THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO BEAT ALL OTHER MARTIAL ARTS.
The Gracie's wanted a fighting style that was the best in the world so they focused on building a grappling style that works in a real fight against the best martial artists in the world.
One more thing they created was the actual sport that the sport jiu-jitsu guys, who I hear mock the Gracie's, love. They literally created the rules and developed a sport that is known today as bjj or jiu-Jitsu. They developed it to increase participation for others to compete and practice in a safe manner without strikes.
Through the years a lot of techniques have been developed to win in this sport. Sport jiu-jitsu has become in many cases its own style. That was not the idea behind the sport butcompetition being what it is that is the way it has worked out. Rickson Gracie makes a comment about the state of sport jiu-jitsu today and perhaps he offended some but what he said is true. A lot of the techniques in sport jiu-jitsu will get you hurt in a real fight whcih brings me to point number two.
2) SPORT JIU- JITSU STYLE WAS DEVELOPED TO BEAT GRACIE JIU-JITSU IN A SPORT SETTING.
Some sport guys have great techniques that make it hard to pass their guard etc. and yes they can be effective in a sport setting against what I guess would be called a pure Graie Jiu-Jitsu style. But these techniques that they use in a sport would allow them to be kneed in the face and opens them to strikes and headbutts etc. Which leads me to point number three.
3) THE SPORT GUYS WHO THINK THEY ONE UPPED THE OLD SCHOOL SELF DEFENSE STYLE BY DEVELOPING A STYLE THAT BEATS GRACIE JIU-JITSU IN A SPORT SETTING WERE FOCUSED SO HARD ON BEATING THE ART OF GRACIE JIU-JITSU THAT THEY FORGOT ABOUT BEATING ALL OTHER STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS.
Remeber, the original purpose of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was a fighting style that beats all other martial arts. I like Keenans style for example but when I hear him mock Henry Akins by saying stuff like "his style is too deadly to spar I guess" etc. These thoughts are what go through my head. Just because he can probably beat him in a sport setting does not mean that his style is better. And just because Gracie University chooses not to compete in todays tournaments does not mean that their style is inferior. Kron Gracie is a great example of how old school Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is still awesome. Roger Gracie is probably the best example of how old school Gracie -jiu-jitsu is still awesome.
Weird how wrestlers and boxers never have to worry whether they are training for self-defense or "sport" ?????
Wrestling isnt marketed as a martial art. If it were I probably wrestle in HS. Ive yet to meet a boxer who doesnt believe the sport translates 100% to a fight and I dont disagree.
Sport bjj would die in a week if it wasnt sold as self defense. Ive competed plenty but taking the fight out of the sport and its just not appealing to me, nor can I see how it would appeal to a layman.
One thing about all the SD talk....I don't see any real discussion of VT. To me, there no real SD w/o VT. And VT is nt just putting on gloves and striking during sparring or drills. It is not just adding strikes to grappling. Another thing, is they take SD so fucking seriously, but so many of the techniques are stupid....it's like the shit is this sacred thing that can't be changed. The answer to any problem....HAS TO BE A JUJITSU-ESQUE BULLSHIT TECHNIQUE!?!?
One simple example of my point about no SD w/o VT....guard passing. What we learn about basic opening the guard, passing, etc like knee in the ass pass, under the leg, knee cut, etc., teaches many useful things. But much of that shit is bullshit....what is important is the attributes developed learning and practicing those techniques and movements against resistance. There is one thing constantly babbled about that is bullshit in VT....but it is sunk into our brains from day one.
I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?
The Vale-Tudo techniques cover the Mutual Combat phase of hand to hand combat. The self defense techniques, aka Helio Gracie self defense techniques, like most martial arts self defense techniques were designed for either a counterattack or a reactionary response. For instance the bear hug counter is either reactionary or a counterattack depending on the defender's awareness.
This is why I hate to use the term self defense to describe the fighting element of Jiu-Jitsu. Jiu-Jitsu can be used in all phases of combat (Attack, Counterattack, Mutual Combat and Reactionary).
If a Jiu-Jitero only trains in the Helio Gracie self defense then he or she is not prepared for Mutual Combat (Duel) and certainly not for a Vale-Tudo or a MMA match.
One thing about all the SD talk....I don't see any real discussion of VT. To me, there no real SD w/o VT. And VT is nt just putting on gloves and striking during sparring or drills. It is not just adding strikes to grappling. Another thing, is they take SD so fucking seriously, but so many of the techniques are stupid....it's like the shit is this sacred thing that can't be changed. The answer to any problem....HAS TO BE A JUJITSU-ESQUE BULLSHIT TECHNIQUE!?!?
One simple example of my point about no SD w/o VT....guard passing. What we learn about basic opening the guard, passing, etc like knee in the ass pass, under the leg, knee cut, etc., teaches many useful things. But much of that shit is bullshit....what is important is the attributes developed learning and practicing those techniques and movements against resistance. There is one thing constantly babbled about that is bullshit in VT....but it is sunk into our brains from day one.
I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?
The Vale-Tudo techniques cover the Mutual Combat phase of hand to hand combat. The self defense techniques, aka Helio Gracie self defense techniques, like most martial arts self defense techniques were designed for either a counterattack or a reactionary response. For instance the bear hug counter is either reactionary or a counterattack depending on the defender's awareness.
This is why I hate to use the term self defense to describe the fighting element of Jiu-Jitsu. Jiu-Jitsu can be used in all phases of combat (Attack, Counterattack, Mutual Combat and Reactionary).
If a Jiu-Jitero only trains in the Helio Gracie self defense then he or she is not prepared for Mutual Combat (Duel) and certainly not for a Vale-Tudo or a MMA match.
EGG-ZAC-LEE!
Especially since in many cases training is conducted almost in a by-rote, lowzintensity manner. Look.at basic sequence of....crash-clinch-slip to side-step in and ogoshi or harai. Works great.....IF.... you actually trained it agaisnt someone actully 5hrowing and moving and resisting. O5herwise it just luck you are dealing with a scrub!!
Then you have an instructor who learned in such manner.....how would they likewise be able to develop the skills of their students and address problems. I rarely seen a yone teaching those fundamental (or combatives) techniques where pucher 8s striking strait down the pipe, combos, etc....almost always some lame ass looping, and usually off-range feed stike.
When I teach, I make people try take my head off or put it in my face. If I just cover and ot crash....I take all that force of that strike and set myself up to have to deal with more, or be on the recieving end of clinch, etc where I am behind the curve. I make 5hem resist my clinch. I make them resit my takedown or 5hrow. So when we move from instuctional to drilling and sparring, the y understand it is ot a game of tag and stand there like a dummy. Obviously, resistance and intensity are progressive&variable....but the objective is to crash to the clinch while dealing with strikes and get a throw or takedown against resistance.
Look back at my crituqe of ricksons SDU...one of the examples was the basic guard pass. WTF DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH SD?!?! How does that address fighting and ending up in someones guard? Jiujitsu has a wierd way of addressing SD 5hat seems bizarre in comparrison to its VT facet.
Eh sport bjj and sd differ so much especially guard
Yes. But training in a purely grappo-fuck facet develops movement, positional, etc skills and attributes that allow you to imple.ent technique, movement a d positions in a tactically better way in a fight.
Its like basic rifle marksmanship, whereby you learn sight aligment, sight oicture, breathing trigger co trol, etc.....then take what you learn and apply it with stress, movement, compressed time, improvised shooting positions, etc. Jiunitsu drilling and rolling develops skills, and the basic strategy may be similar, but tactics and method of application obviously changes within the context of the environement
It's mostly a conceptual difference. Before BJJers used grappling to keep in shape and learn to deal with skilled attacks with resistance. It also gave a "game" to the art to allow contests of skill and sport. But this was mostly to augment (by resistance) the skills you need to use BJJ in a fight.
What has happened now is people say âall you need is sport BJJâ to win a fight. This may have been truer 20 years ago, but sport has moved so far away from reality that it may not be true now.
Another thing that has happened is that some athletes are now world class, highly conditioned monster athletes and they are bad comparisons for what is effective.
I still say for the average person, BJJ as it is taught now in most academies is not enough to handle a real tough guy.
Fighting techniques (in any style) are there for a reason. Learning to defend punches and clinch is not just something you learn on the fly.
I remember my old instructor friend brought his friend (around 2004) who was somewhat of a beer-bellied former tough guy and put gloves on him and told him to âbeat the shitâ out of us until we clinched or he called stop. We didnât even have mouth-guards! Almost everyone there got clobbered because he was trying to blast them into space and they were finding hard to get in and clinch or double leg, and they didnât really have any learned movements. IT was eye opening to see these brown belts, purple belts, blue belts who had never had a real punch thrown at them in training. We got clobbered. Well, I did mostly okay. Plus he gassed. lol
HotSteppa - It's mostly a conceptual difference. Before BJJers used grappling to keep in shape and learn to deal with skilled attacks with resistance. It also gave a "game" to the art to allow contests of skill and sport. But this was mostly to augment (by resistance) the skills you need to use BJJ in a fight.
What has happened now is people say âall you need is sport BJJâ to win a fight. This may have been truer 20 years ago, but sport has moved so far away from reality that it may not be true now.
Another thing that has happened is that some athletes are now world class, highly conditioned monster athletes and they are bad comparisons for what is effective.
I still say for the average person, BJJ as it is taught now in most academies is not enough to handle a real tough guy.
Fighting techniques (in any style) are there for a reason. Learning to defend punches and clinch is not just something you learn on the fly.
I remember my old instructor friend brought his friend (around 2004) who was somewhat of a beer-bellied former tough guy and put gloves on him and told him to âbeat the shitâ out of us until we clinched or he called stop. We didnât even have mouth-guards! Almost everyone there got clobbered because he was trying to blast them into space and they were finding hard to get in and clinch or double leg, and they didnât really have any learned movements. IT was eye opening to see these brown belts, purple belts, blue belts who had never had a real punch thrown at them in training. We got clobbered. Well, I did mostly okay. Plus he gassed. lol
LOLâŚNOW THATS TRAINING!
A couple yewrs ago I had a friend going to do contract work in afganstan. He wanted to learn some knife skill as last ditch weapon if he ran out of ammo cause he didnt wanna end up in a head sawing video. Theres all manner of systematic training shittery in FMA, of which Im fairly familiar withâŚbut what did we train. I taught him cut a d trhust angles, defang and oofensive use of live handâŚthe we progressively incorporated that into trying to drive eacther into or through shit while trying to kill eachother. Vale Tudo, or fighting with jiunitsu is sameâŚfairly simple, but requires techniques and tactics that maximizes chance of success and mi imizes chance of damage in a fighting context. Grappo-fuckery only training doesnt accomplish that.
It looks like at the end of the day, leaning Gracie JJ won't prepare you that well for a real life confrontation either- cause unless I'm wrong, their core curriculum doesn't have that much self defense anyhow, and they don't seem to train with full effort in these classes (at least at schools utilizing Gracie Combatives course).
Like mentioned above- I agree- if you want to train purely for self defense, then you should just learn vale tudo/mma.
But, there are also a ton of people that just want to have fun, get in better shape, stress relief, etc- then sport bjj, will be fine for them.
Heck, the cross fit industry is huge- with tons of people participating. Sport BJJ with all of its lame, non functional in a real fight moves, is still way more fun than that.
So "bottom line" Jiujitsu, whose history and culture is BES FITE IINA WIRL, is dead as a mar5ial art and fighting style/system. Somebody tell all those instructors to quit marketing it! And those that advocate for maintaining and improving the style should STFU and accept the faggotry!
THANK GOODNESS WE HAS A SOLUTION! "ZHOOZHITSU....BES SPORD INNA WIRL!?!?!"
Knowing sport bjj is better than knowing no bjj. BUT I do think more gyms should focus on self defense...if you ever get stuck in "non" sport bjj positions,especially at the lower levels.
Also rolling with strikes completely changes the game. I wish the gym I trained at did more SD/combat BJJ.
I will say, sport bjj is so fun. I just wish it was atleast slightly less grip dependent. I understand guys like Keenan are using their creativity to create all the lapel things, I just think its bringing bjj SO far from its roots.
Like everything, old things become cool again. Im hoping SD is one of them.
kying418 - I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.
My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.
If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a âreal lifeâ situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.
The Gracie combatives are composed of basic and foundational technqiues designed to be used on other martial artist or people who have no or very little knowledge (and experience) of Jiujitsu.
The basic idea is that these techniques will work on someone who does NOT know jiujitsu. This all changes when the opponent does know jiujitsu. These same techniques wonât work as well against someone who knows (and is experience with) Jiujitsu. Logically a person who knows Jiujitsu wonât give you the same opportunities or even react the same way a person who doesnât will.
Rorion made this point in the Advance Gracie tapes he did with Royce. Mario Sperry also made the same point in his Vale Tudo series.
Trying to apply the Gracie combatives against a knowledgeable and experience Jiujitsu person is pointless. This is what happens when you make a regular practice of live rolling with a resisting opponent WHO KNOWS JIUJITSU.
m.g. - I disagree a little bit here, conceptually. The way that I understand BJJ comes from a different perspective, I think, than what you've described.
We mostly agree. But here's where we don't: "These same techniques won't work as well against someone who knows (and is experience with) Jiujitsu."
In my understanding, there are not techniques that work against X skill level but not Y skill level. A triangle choke or a mount escape or anything else can fail or succeed at any level, given the context. If you name a "basic" technique, you can also name a competitor who has made it work in high level competition.
There are defenses, escapes, and counters to every single technique in the BJJ library. There are also ways to prevent and counter all of these countertechniques. The game between intermediate and advanced players IS different than the game played by beginners (or played against a non-practitioner), but it is not in the choice of techniques. It is in the way that the player manages opportunities for defense, escape, or counter. This management is primarily one of positioning and timing - the positioning may or may not match the "basic" technique (though it usually does), and the timing is managed in real time.
Because of all this, it is not pointless to apply the basic techniques (a la Gracie Combatives) against someone experienced in jiujitsu - you merely need to incorporate intermediate training methods (not techniques). Those training methods should not point you towards other techniques, but rather towards the positioning and timing that will allow you to manage your partner's opportunities to defend.
I say all this to say - I think it is appropriate to point out, as Calhoon has, that the old library of BJJ techniques were designed to account for striking/fighting situations, and that modern sport BJJ has turned niche aspects into larger topics, where many of the techniques within these niches no longer aim to deal with non-grappling scenarios.
Bot - I can picture all of the self defense larpers beating the shit out of Galvao, Mendez, and Cornelius in a street fight.
Id take sperry and the likes over any.of those examples......jiuiitsu used to be about fighting and guys like sperry would hardly be called larpers.
Apples to apples......jiujitsu fighters that trained hard v sport jiujitsu athletes.
Sperry is not your typical Gracie Jiujitsu Fighter or practitioner. If you really define him, he was a Sport Jiu-Jitsu guy who competed in many tournaments and also ventured and trained Vale Tudo
kying418 - I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.
My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.
If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a âreal lifeâ situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.
The Gracie combatives are composed of basic and foundational technqiues designed to be used on other martial artist or people who have no or very little knowledge (and experience) of Jiujitsu.
The basic idea is that these techniques will work on someone who does NOT know jiujitsu. This all changes when the opponent does know jiujitsu. These same techniques wonât work as well against someone who knows (and is experience with) Jiujitsu. Logically a person who knows Jiujitsu wonât give you the same opportunities or even react the same way a person who doesnât will.
Rorion made this point in the Advance Gracie tapes he did with Royce. Mario Sperry also made the same point in his Vale Tudo series.
Trying to apply the Gracie combatives against a knowledgeable and experience Jiujitsu person is pointless. This is what happens when you make a regular practice of live rolling with a resisting opponent WHO KNOWS JIUJITSU.
m.g. - I disagree a little bit here, conceptually. The way that I understand BJJ comes from a different perspective, I think, than what youâve described.
We mostly agree. But hereâs where we donât: âThese same techniques wonât work as well against someone who knows (and is experience with) Jiujitsu.â
In my understanding, there are not techniques that work against X skill level but not Y skill level. A triangle choke or a mount escape or anything else can fail or succeed at any level, given the context. If you name a âbasicâ technique, you can also name a competitor who has made it work in high level competition.
There are defenses, escapes, and counters to every single technique in the BJJ library. There are also ways to prevent and counter all of these countertechniques. The game between intermediate and advanced players IS different than the game played by beginners (or played against a non-practitioner), but it is not in the choice of techniques. It is in the way that the player manages opportunities for defense, escape, or counter. This management is primarily one of positioning and timing - the positioning may or may not match the âbasicâ technique (though it usually does), and the timing is managed in real time.
Because of all this, it is not pointless to apply the basic techniques (a la Gracie Combatives) against someone experienced in jiujitsu - you merely need to incorporate intermediate training methods (not techniques). Those training methods should not point you towards other techniques, but rather towards the positioning and timing that will allow you to manage your partnerâs opportunities to defend.
I say all this to say - I think it is appropriate to point out, as Calhoon has, that the old library of BJJ techniques were designed to account for striking/fighting situations, and that modern sport BJJ has turned niche aspects into larger topics, where many of the techniques within these niches no longer aim to deal with non-grappling scenarios.
Outstanding post.
I agree with the message by T-CT but speaking of the Gracie Combatives program specifically, it is introductory and needs more techniques to be effective against good grapplers.
For example the only side control escape taught is a very basic shrimp escape that does not even include a bridge, the shrimp escape along with an introduction to the concept of creating space, which in Gracie Combatives relies on the opponent creating space to strike, is all that is taught. That clearly is not enough to escape against anyone who can grapple.
The program is great though imo. As I said earlier it is a great introduction to using jiu-Jitsu in a no rules fighting situation and they offer more online instruction to go along with it.