Gracie Jiu-Jitsu vs Sport Jiu-Jitsu (my thoughts)

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Let me start this by saying that I am not starting this thread to talk shit on sport jiu-Jitsu. I love it and I really like doing it. My first love however is jiu-jitsu for self defense. I got into the art because I loved fighting and still to this day my first priority in doing jiu-jitsu is that it works in a real fight and I imagine doing it against a bigger stronger and more athletic opponent just to see what works. Chances are I may never have to use it again, God willing, but still I love to train with self defense in mind. Again, I do train sport jiu-Jitsu also and I realize how fun it is so I am not wanting to talk shit about it.

 

I do see people post stuff and say stuff about Gracie jiu-Jitsu though and that is what I want to reply to. I hear people talk about Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in a derogatory way mimicking it by saying it's "too deadly" for tournaments etc. They seem to think that because Rener and Ryron for example don't compete in tournaments that their jiu-Jitsu is inferior to the competitors who compete in tournaments. I will give you my take on this though and I believe it is something for other jiu-Jitsu guys to take the time to comprehend.

 

My take is this...

1) GRACIE JIU-JITSU WAS CREATED WITH THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO BEAT ALL OTHER MARTIAL ARTS. 

 

The Gracie's wanted a fighting style that was the best in the world so they focused on building a grappling style that works in a real fight against the best martial artists in the world. 

 

One more thing they created was the actual sport that the sport jiu-jitsu guys, who I hear mock the Gracie's, love. They literally created the rules and developed a sport that is known today as bjj or jiu-Jitsu. They developed it to increase participation for others to compete and practice in a safe manner without strikes.

 

Through the years a lot of techniques have been developed to win in this sport. Sport jiu-jitsu has become in many cases its own style. That was not the idea behind the sport butcompetition being what it is that is the way it has worked out. Rickson Gracie makes a comment about the state of sport jiu-jitsu today and perhaps he offended some but what he said is true. A lot of the techniques in sport jiu-jitsu will get you hurt in a real fight whcih brings me to point number two.

 

2) SPORT JIU- JITSU STYLE WAS DEVELOPED TO BEAT GRACIE JIU-JITSU IN A SPORT SETTING.

 

Some sport guys have great techniques that make it hard to pass their guard etc. and yes they can be effective in a sport setting against what I guess would be called a pure Graie Jiu-Jitsu style. But these techniques that they use in a sport would allow them to be kneed in the face and opens them to strikes and headbutts etc. Which leads me to point number three.

 

3) THE SPORT GUYS WHO THINK THEY ONE UPPED THE OLD SCHOOL SELF DEFENSE STYLE BY DEVELOPING A STYLE THAT BEATS GRACIE JIU-JITSU IN A SPORT SETTING WERE FOCUSED SO HARD ON BEATING THE ART OF GRACIE JIU-JITSU THAT THEY FORGOT ABOUT BEATING ALL OTHER STYLES OF MARTIAL ARTS.

 

Remeber, the original purpose of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was a fighting style that beats all other martial arts. I like Keenans style for example but when I hear him mock Henry Akins by saying stuff like "his style is too deadly to spar I guess" etc. These thoughts are what go through my head. Just because he can probably beat him in a sport setting does not mean that his style is better. And just because Gracie University chooses not to compete in todays tournaments does not mean that their style is inferior. Kron Gracie is a great example of how old school Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is still awesome. Roger Gracie is probably the best example of how old school Gracie -jiu-jitsu is still awesome.

 

Anyways, rant over.

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Can't really aurgue with that!

 

One thing about all the SD talk....I don't see any real discussion of VT. To me, there no real SD w/o VT. And VT is nt just putting on gloves and striking during sparring or drills. It is not just adding strikes to grappling. Another thing, is they take SD so fucking seriously, but so many of the techniques are stupid....it's like the shit is this sacred thing that can't be changed. The answer to any problem....HAS TO BE A JUJITSU-ESQUE BULLSHIT TECHNIQUE!?!?

One simple example of my point about no SD w/o VT....guard passing. What we learn about basic opening the guard, passing, etc like knee in the ass pass, under the leg, knee cut, etc., teaches many useful things. But much of that shit is bullshit....what is important is the attributes developed learning and practicing those techniques and movements against resistance. There is one thing constantly babbled about that is bullshit in VT....but it is sunk into our brains from day one.

 

I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?

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Sgt. Slaphead -

Can't really aurgue with that!

 

One thing about all the SD talk....I don't see any real discussion of VT. To me, there no real SD w/o VT. And VT is nt just putting on gloves and striking during sparring or drills. It is not just adding strikes to grappling. Another thing, is they take SD so fucking seriously, but so many of the techniques are stupid....it's like the shit is this sacred thing that can't be changed. The answer to any problem....HAS TO BE A JUJITSU-ESQUE BULLSHIT TECHNIQUE!?!?

One simple example of my point about no SD w/o VT....guard passing. What we learn about basic opening the guard, passing, etc like knee in the ass pass, under the leg, knee cut, etc., teaches many useful things. But much of that shit is bullshit....what is important is the attributes developed learning and practicing those techniques and movements against resistance. There is one thing constantly babbled about that is bullshit in VT....but it is sunk into our brains from day one.

 

I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?

I considered replacing the word self-defense in my post with vale tudo but wondered if young people would know what vale tudo was. Mma was not accurate either because mma is a sport also even if it is a closer sport to vale tudo than what bjj is.

 

I also agree with your thoughts on progress in vale tudo. I do think there is some progress. Rickson was in an interview not long ago talking about spending hours with Rockson redisigning his guard after watching Kerr vs Gurgel. Vale tudo simply is not as popular as sport jiu-jitsu so you don't see as much progression. You see a lot in mma but it doesn't always translate to vale tudo because sometimes it is created with judges in mind and short time limits, an example would be that no one wants to get stuck on their back in mma for five minutes and lose a round in mma but in vale tudo the guard may be your best option at the time. Also mma has weight classes so it's different than vale tudo.

 

Speaking of progression in vale tudo. I mentioned Keenan in my OP. I do like his stuff a lot I just don't care for that one comment he made in regards to Akins. But it's no big deal it was just one comment. Anyways imo he is one of the most creative minds in jiu-jitsu and I have always thought that it would be cool to see what he would come up with in progressing both mma style grappling and vale-tudo jiu-jitsu. If he reads this by chance I just want to say that I am a member to Keenan online and I am requesting that he shares all the creative ways he can think of to use strikes while grappling on there in the future. Lol

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"I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?"

Because its hard.  As stated the sport of jiu jitsu was created as a way to compete w/o getting punched in the face.

It is hard enough to find a training partner willing to do VT, much less train enough to innovate.  MMA grappling is better than nothing but it is still all about "gaming" the ruleset.

Calhoon - Well stated.  I cant find anything to disagree with you on.  Just to bring things down a level... do you think Henry takes Keenan in a fight?

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Some great points, and the main thing I've been researching for a long time.

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N5Z -

"I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?"

Because its hard.  As stated the sport of jiu jitsu was created as a way to compete w/o getting punched in the face.

It is hard enough to find a training partner willing to do VT, much less train enough to innovate.  MMA grappling is better than nothing but it is still all about "gaming" the ruleset.

Calhoon - Well stated.  I cant find anything to disagree with you on.  Just to bring things down a level... do you think Henry takes Keenan in a fight?

"Do you think that Henry takes Keenan in a fight?"

 

Hmmm, interesting question! I would have to say no, I would pick Keenan to win. 

 

Here is the thing. Keenan teaches a sport style of jiu-jitsu because that is where his focus is and probably where the money in the industry is right now but Keenan himself is not just a sport guy. He has been around forever, trained and worked for BJ Penn, and not only that but trains harder than Henry has probably ever trained in his life. I am quite certain that he fully understands how to use jiu-jitsu in a real fight and against all other martial arts. Does he teach his students that though? I could be wrong but I don't think so. So while I would pick Keenan to beat Henry in a real fight I would also pick Henry's students to beat Keenan's in real fights in general.

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I could live a fulfilled life doing nothing but Gracie Combatives and engage in some basic sparring using those fundamentals if forced to make a choice.

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Calhoon -
N5Z -

"I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?"

Because its hard.  As stated the sport of jiu jitsu was created as a way to compete w/o getting punched in the face.

It is hard enough to find a training partner willing to do VT, much less train enough to innovate.  MMA grappling is better than nothing but it is still all about "gaming" the ruleset.

Calhoon - Well stated.  I cant find anything to disagree with you on.  Just to bring things down a level... do you think Henry takes Keenan in a fight?

"Do you think that Henry takes Keenan in a fight?"

 

Hmmm, interesting question! I would have to say no, I would pick Keenan to win. 

 

Here is the thing. Keenan teaches a sport style of jiu-jitsu because that is where his focus is and probably where the money in the industry is right now but Keenan himself is not just a sport guy. He has been around forever, trained and worked for BJ Penn, and not only that but trains harder than Henry has probably ever trained in his life. I am quite certain that he fully understands how to use jiu-jitsu in a real fight and against all other martial arts. Does he teach his students that though? I could be wrong but I don't think so. So while I would pick Keenan to beat Henry in a real fight I would also pick Henry's students to be beat Keenan's in real fights in general.

you dont think Keenans students take after him and probably train harder than any of Henrys students do

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mideastgrappler -
Calhoon -
N5Z -

"I've asked this many times....why is evolution in the faggotry of jiujitsu "The Sport" pursued and so admired, yet so ignored in jiujitsu "The Fighting Style"?"

Because its hard.  As stated the sport of jiu jitsu was created as a way to compete w/o getting punched in the face.

It is hard enough to find a training partner willing to do VT, much less train enough to innovate.  MMA grappling is better than nothing but it is still all about "gaming" the ruleset.

Calhoon - Well stated.  I cant find anything to disagree with you on.  Just to bring things down a level... do you think Henry takes Keenan in a fight?

"Do you think that Henry takes Keenan in a fight?"

 

Hmmm, interesting question! I would have to say no, I would pick Keenan to win. 

 

Here is the thing. Keenan teaches a sport style of jiu-jitsu because that is where his focus is and probably where the money in the industry is right now but Keenan himself is not just a sport guy. He has been around forever, trained and worked for BJ Penn, and not only that but trains harder than Henry has probably ever trained in his life. I am quite certain that he fully understands how to use jiu-jitsu in a real fight and against all other martial arts. Does he teach his students that though? I could be wrong but I don't think so. So while I would pick Keenan to beat Henry in a real fight I would also pick Henry's students to be beat Keenan's in real fights in general.

you dont think Keenans students take after him and probably train harder than any of Henrys students do

That's not what I said. 

 

I think that Keenan has learned jiu-jitsu for a fight and Keenan can use jiu-jitsu for a fight. I am not certain and highly doubt that Keenan has taught even his most advanced students how to use positions for that situation. Sport jiu-Jitsu is so complex these days that he has probably spent every moment of instruction dealing for sport situations while Henry spends the majority of time instructing on how to fight. For that reason I feel like Henry's students would be better prepared and all things being as equal as possible Henry's students would have better jiu-jitsu to win a fight.

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physical attributs and athletism count in a fight, which can offsset specialized skills.so who would win a fight is waste of time and just ego stupidity.

 

People who want braodly applicable skillset should train one way, those that want specialized one another.What is irksome is peoole clai.ing one thing and yet 5heir training methodology doesnt support it.....this applies to faggotry of claiming martial arts a d SD, but only doing homo-grappo, and to so called SD/martial arts guys 5hat do redi ulous kata-esque faggotry and call it SD.

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Bukabuki -

Its the same thing. Gracie jiujitsu is for people who can't compete and need validation so they become street fight "experts".

I disagree. Worm guard someone in the street and get back to us

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I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.

My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.

If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a “real life” situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.

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kying418 - I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.

My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.

If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a “real life” situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.

how are you trainijg them? You are an instructor, what credentials and experience do you bring to your teachijg of these combative techniques? Do you sell your training as developing defensive skills?

 

Im not trying to be a prick, 5his makes for a deeper discussion. You incorporated materiel that has a purpose and ask how it is trained…that raises a question about how you implement it witin your curriculum. Training in techniques while lacking application experience is at the heart of my point about SD trainj g requiring sparring based trainng like VT.

 

 

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kying418 - I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.

My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.

If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a “real life” situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.

The Gracie combatives are composed of basic and foundational technqiues designed to be used on other martial artist or people who have no or very little knowledge (and experience) of Jiujitsu.

The basic idea is that these techniques will work on someone who does NOT know jiujitsu. This all changes when the opponent does know jiujitsu. These same techniques won’t work as well against someone who knows (and is experience with) Jiujitsu. Logically a person who knows Jiujitsu won’t give you the same opportunities or even react the same way a person who doesn’t will.

Rorion made this point in the Advance Gracie tapes he did with Royce. Mario Sperry also made the same point in his Vale Tudo series.

Trying to apply the Gracie combatives against a knowledgeable and experience Jiujitsu person is pointless. This is what happens when you make a regular practice of live rolling with a resisting opponent WHO KNOWS JIUJITSU.

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The Gracie combatives program is just an introduction to the vale tudo style of jiu-jitsu taught by Rener and Ryron. It is effective enough to work on an untrained opponent even if they are more athletic and have experience in other striking style of martial arts. It is also the equivalent of only maybe a blue belt in vale tudo style of fighting. There is still a lot left to learn and a lot more they can teach you if you want to be effective against other grapplers who are of higher level. It is a great place to start though imo as it teaches you the fundamentals of having an effective guard for a fighting situation and it is grappling with strikes in mind. That is the way I see it.

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Sgt. Slaphead - 
kying418 - I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.

My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.

If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a “real life” situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.

how are you trainijg them? You are an instructor, what credentials and experience do you bring to your teachijg of these combative techniques? Do you sell your training as developing defensive skills?

 

Im not trying to be a prick, 5his makes for a deeper discussion. You incorporated materiel that has a purpose and ask how it is trained…that raises a question about how you implement it witin your curriculum. Training in techniques while lacking application experience is at the heart of my point about SD trainj g requiring sparring based trainng like VT.

 

 

The Gracie Combatives system is super basic, and nothing ground breaking…in fact it’s primarily basic bjj that most schools teach already.  Of the 36 techniques- basically 3 are “self defense” - punch block to clinch (standing), punch block series from the closed guard, and blocking a haymaker from standing.   I learned all of those years back from Renzo in the early 2000’s.

 

The remaining of the techniques are your standard basic bjj techniques- triangle, armlock, mount escape, headlock escape, americana, etc- of which I learned from Renzo, Danaher, Shawn Williams, and Marcelo for the past 19 years. 

 

I’m quite confident that I’m qualified in teaching all of those techniques :slight_smile:

 

And no, I do not sell my bjj classes as self defense - I live in Florida, where tons of people carry guns- I tell people the best self defense is avoidance, de-escalating, and running.

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Calhoon -

The Gracie combatives program is just an introduction to the vale tudo style of jiu-jitsu taught by Rener and Ryron. It is effective enough to work on an untrained opponent even if they are more athletic and have experience in other striking style of martial arts. It is also the equivalent of only maybe a blue belt in vale tudo style of fighting. There is still a lot left to learn and a lot more they can teach you if you want to be effective against other grapplers who are of higher level. It is a great place to start though imo as it teaches you the fundamentals of having an effective guard for a fighting situation and it is grappling with strikes in mind. That is the way I see it.

GC is vale tudo!!! I thought they dont allow sparring?..how could that be vt?

 

 

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kying418 -
Sgt. Slaphead - 
kying418 - I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.

My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.

If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a “real life” situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.

how are you trainijg them? You are an instructor, what credentials and experience do you bring to your teachijg of these combative techniques? Do you sell your training as developing defensive skills?

 

Im not trying to be a prick, 5his makes for a deeper discussion. You incorporated materiel that has a purpose and ask how it is trained…that raises a question about how you implement it witin your curriculum. Training in techniques while lacking application experience is at the heart of my point about SD trainj g requiring sparring based trainng like VT.

 

 

The Gracie Combatives system is super basic, and nothing ground breaking…in fact it’s primarily basic bjj that most schools teach already.  Of the 36 techniques- basically 3 are “self defense” - punch block to clinch (standing), punch block series from the closed guard, and blocking a haymaker from standing.   I learned all of those years back from Renzo in the early 2000’s.

 

The remaining of the techniques are your standard basic bjj techniques- triangle, armlock, mount escape, headlock escape, americana, etc- of which I learned from Renzo, Danaher, Shawn Williams, and Marcelo for the past 19 years. 

 

I’m quite confident that I’m qualified in teaching all of those techniques :slight_smile:

 

And no, I do not sell my bjj classes as self defense - I live in Florida, where tons of people carry guns- I tell people the best self defense is avoidance, de-escalating, and running.

so only 3 lessons address striking in their combatives program?!?!

 

HOLY HELL

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m.g - 
kying418 - I have trained "sport" bjj for a long time, and really appreciate the Gracie Combatives stuff as well. I think the Gracie brothers (Rener and Ryron) are two of the finest instructors I have ever seen), and I try to incorporate as much Gracie Combatives techniques in my own academies fundamental program.

My only complaint with Gracie Combatives, and it could be more of a question is how are the techniques usually trained at these Gracie academies? From what I gather, most of the techniques are drilled through their Reflex Development phase, which seems to be drilling vs. using the technique in live rolling against a resisting opponent.

If that is the case, one could question the effectiveness of knowing any of these techniques in a “real life” situation if the practitioner has never tried to apply it full speed / against resistance.

The Gracie combatives are composed of basic and foundational technqiues designed to be used on other martial artist or people who have no or very little knowledge (and experience) of Jiujitsu.

The basic idea is that these techniques will work on someone who does NOT know jiujitsu. This all changes when the opponent does know jiujitsu. These same techniques won’t work as well against someone who knows (and is experience with) Jiujitsu. Logically a person who knows Jiujitsu won’t give you the same opportunities or even react the same way a person who doesn’t will.

Rorion made this point in the Advance Gracie tapes he did with Royce. Mario Sperry also made the same point in his Vale Tudo series.

Trying to apply the Gracie combatives against a knowledgeable and experience Jiujitsu person is pointless. This is what happens when you make a regular practice of live rolling with a resisting opponent WHO KNOWS JIUJITSU.

m.g. - I disagree a little bit here, conceptually. The way that I understand BJJ comes from a different perspective, I think, than what you've described.

We mostly agree. But here's where we don't: "These same techniques won't work as well against someone who knows (and is experience with) Jiujitsu."

In my understanding, there are not techniques that work against X skill level but not Y skill level.  A triangle choke or a mount escape or anything else can fail or succeed at any level, given the context.  If you name a "basic" technique, you can also name a competitor who has made it work in high level competition.  

There are defenses, escapes, and counters to every single technique in the BJJ library. There are also ways to prevent and counter all of these countertechniques.  The game between intermediate and advanced players IS different than the game played by beginners (or played against a non-practitioner), but it is not in the choice of techniques.  It is in the way that the player manages opportunities for defense, escape, or counter. This management is primarily one of positioning and timing - the positioning may or may not match the "basic" technique (though it usually does), and the timing is managed in real time.  

Because of all this, it is not pointless to apply the basic techniques (a la Gracie Combatives) against someone experienced in jiujitsu - you merely need to incorporate intermediate training methods (not techniques).  Those training methods should not point you towards other techniques, but rather towards the positioning and timing that will allow you to manage your partner's opportunities to defend.  

 

I say all this to say - I think it is appropriate to point out, as Calhoon has, that the old library of BJJ techniques were designed to account for striking/fighting situations, and that modern sport BJJ has turned niche aspects into larger topics, where many of the techniques within these niches no longer aim to deal with non-grappling scenarios.  

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Weird how wrestlers and boxers never have to worry whether they are training for self-defense or "sport" ?????