I'm pretty sure Relson has 16 or so self defense moves for when someone is pointing a gun at you. Other people probably have different or additional moves. Other styles have different techniques as well.
Some of the things said in the recent sport vs self defense have got me thinking. Fatbuddha commented on here that people need to spend more time on self defense and less time on the sporting aspect. Other jiu jitsu folks have claimed that it is irresponsible to teach jiu jitsu without the self defense element (I know this includes striking and stuff like that but the gun defenses can be tied into that).
I have done thousands of armbars since I first started training and I still can make errors in my movements so as to not secure the submission. In a gun defense situation, a small error could be lethal.
My question is: Have you ever had to use your gun defense knowledge in a real life situation and how did it turn out?
no i havnt but i have met 4 or five cops over the years who have. im trying to find a vid i saw at a recent training class to post. guy pulls gun on cop, cop takes it the hands it back to the bad guy out of habit. bad guy is confused raises it again and cop takes it a second time. muscle memory is a mother fucker.
i actually trust gun take away techniques more than knife techniques. the gracie stuff is good. OPOTA (ohio peace officers training association) has some good stuff on this to which i didnt want to accept at first because there "ground fighting" course was absolute horseshit. OPOTA had some better angles for leverage with the bad guy using different grips not just the dummy grip. the main thing for me is blading your body out of the line of the barrel before you grab. after that taking the gun is easy.
It´s irresponsible to teach gun "defense" (or knife) 
ckaa - It´s irresponsible to teach gun "defense" (or knife)
LOL... That is all!!!!!!!!1
ckaa - It´s irresponsible to teach gun "defense" (or knife)
I agree. --Same with CPR-- A lot of peope wil die anyway, so why even bother?
I kid.
I certainly never have had a real gun trained on me. I have however taken many different "defense against the armed assailant classes", taught by all sorts of instructors, a couple well known handgun teachers, a couple well known Krav Maga teachers, a few Jujutsu instructors, one crazy Aikido/ Self Defense teacher, a WWII era combatives/ Kali instructor, a SWAT trainer, former Special Forces/Aikido guy, a Combat Sambo instructor (work paid for me to train in person with multiple different instructors to see what's is out there). I believe I have a pretty solid sense of what is being taught by various people. And of course I've done a lot of adrenal stress scenarios on this topic. There is a LOT of commonailty among the better stuff.
The Gracies defenses I have seen are not the absolute worst --they are on par with the traditional jiu jitsu ones I was taught-- but they do not rank up there, IMO, because: 1) They are too complicated; they add an "extra" unnecessary layer of technique and that's NOT a good thing under extreme stress and 2) they are too specific; they do the typical TMA thing where you have x number of different defenses for x number different attacks. Under such extreme stress, the brain is less likely to effectively recall what to do when given so much choice. The best defenses I have seen can be learned in a few minutes. They need to be absurdly simple and easy to generalize to a wide number of attacks. The actual "techinque" itself should not pose any sort of hurdle because the psychological and physiological hurdles will already be huge.
Common sense should tell us that survival should be the only goal of a gun defense. Stuff like RUNNING away should be factored into the decision making tree. Things like putting the assailant in a "goose neck wristlock" should NOT factor into to. All evidence says that it needs to be a SIMPLE, GROSS MOTOR action and you should train it under adrenal stress with the understanding that your window of opportunity to do such a thing is usually very small, if there even is one.
No but I have used a tank.....a tank called brazilian jiu jitsu.
.
shen -
I certainly never have had a real gun trained on me. I have however taken many different "defense against the armed assailant classes", taught by all sorts of instructors, a couple well known handgun teachers, a couple well known Krav Maga teachers, a few Jujutsu instructors, one crazy Aikido/ Self Defense teacher, a WWII era combatives/ Kali instructor, a SWAT trainer, former Special Forces/Aikido guy, a Combat Sambo instructor (work paid for me to train in person with multiple different instructors to see what's is out there). I believe I have a pretty solid sense of what is being taught by various people. And of course I've done a lot of adrenal stress scenarios on this topic. There is a LOT of commonailty among the better stuff.
The Gracies defenses I have seen are not the absolute worst --they are on par with the traditional jiu jitsu ones I was taught-- but they do not rank up there, IMO, because: 1) They are too complicated; they add an "extra" unnecessary layer of technique and that's NOT a good thing under extreme stress and 2) they are too specific; they do the typical TMA thing where you have x number of different defenses for x number different attacks. Under such extreme stress, the brain is less likely to effectively recall what to do when given so much choice. The best defenses I have seen can be learned in a few minutes. They need to be absurdly simple and easy to generalize to a wide number of attacks. The actual "techinque" itself should not pose any sort of hurdle because the psychological and physiological hurdles will already be huge.
Common sense should tell us that survival should be the only goal of a gun defense. Stuff like RUNNING away should be factored into the decision making tree. Things like putting the assailant in a "goose neck wristlock" should NOT factor into to. All evidence says that it needs to be a SIMPLE, GROSS MOTOR action and you should train it under adrenal stress with the understanding that your window of opportunity to do such a thing is usually very small, if there even is one.
I recently began training at the Gracie Academy in Torrance (went in as a purple belt..) and we just did the standing/SD chapter which was the first time I had seen a lot of that stuff.
I have to say that I was actually surprised by how simple and straight forward the gun defenses where. I'm not sure if there was formerly a more complex solution taught, but the stuff I was shown (Rener taught) was about as basic as it gets and was explained a lot more conceptually than it was overloaded in techniques
JGooch - no i havnt but i have met 4 or five cops over the years who have. im trying to find a vid i saw at a recent training class to post. guy pulls gun on cop, cop takes it the hands it back to the bad guy out of habit. bad guy is confused raises it again and cop takes it a second time. muscle memory is a mother fucker.
When we train gun takeaways (since the academy) we never hand the gun back. We always secure it and then set it down. I have trained and feel comfortable with my gun takeaway techniques. I have used one once but with hindsight it was obvious the guy had no intention of shooting me and the gun was not pointed at me at the time I removed it from his hands.
shen -
I certainly never have had a real gun trained on me. I have however taken many different "defense against the armed assailant classes", taught by all sorts of instructors, a couple well known handgun teachers, a couple well known Krav Maga teachers, a few Jujutsu instructors, one crazy Aikido/ Self Defense teacher, a WWII era combatives/ Kali instructor, a SWAT trainer, former Special Forces/Aikido guy, a Combat Sambo instructor (work paid for me to train in person with multiple different instructors to see what's is out there). I believe I have a pretty solid sense of what is being taught by various people. And of course I've done a lot of adrenal stress scenarios on this topic. There is a LOT of commonailty among the better stuff.
The Gracies defenses I have seen are not the absolute worst --they are on par with the traditional jiu jitsu ones I was taught-- but they do not rank up there, IMO, because: 1) They are too complicated; they add an "extra" unnecessary layer of technique and that's NOT a good thing under extreme stress and 2) they are too specific; they do the typical TMA thing where you have x number of different defenses for x number different attacks. Under such extreme stress, the brain is less likely to effectively recall what to do when given so much choice. The best defenses I have seen can be learned in a few minutes. They need to be absurdly simple and easy to generalize to a wide number of attacks. The actual "techinque" itself should not pose any sort of hurdle because the psychological and physiological hurdles will already be huge.
Common sense should tell us that survival should be the only goal of a gun defense. Stuff like RUNNING away should be factored into the decision making tree. Things like putting the assailant in a "goose neck wristlock" should NOT factor into to. All evidence says that it needs to be a SIMPLE, GROSS MOTOR action and you should train it under adrenal stress with the understanding that your window of opportunity to do such a thing is usually very small, if there even is one.
About the gracie gun defenses......indeed.
And in general, gun defenses suck against trained people wjo have goood weaapons training and retention skill.......yku cant even get to the gun when they get close to you.
It really is a last ditch option and the best is if you preventijg or get control as it being drawn.....especially felony-carry type draw.
I train them regularly, as with the knife defenses.
Having said that, it's one of those things I would only try if I was pretty sure I'm about to die anyway. Same with knife defenses. If it's about my wallet, have my wallet. If I'm not convinced you're going to use your weapon on me, or I can get away, great.
It's really a last ditch do or die option IMO.
As a side note, the GJJ defenses for overhand/underhand stabs/blows are basically just that, last ditch responses to surprise attacks you didn't see coming.
If you saw the knife/bottle/whatever already, then you would just move the hell away.
sebastard - I train them regularly, as with the knife defenses.
Having said that, it's one of those things I would only try if I was pretty sure I'm about to die anyway. Same with knife defenses. If it's about my wallet, have my wallet. If I'm not convinced you're going to use your weapon on me, or I can get away, great.
It's really a last ditch do or die option IMO.
As a side note, the GJJ defenses for overhand/underhand stabs/blows are basically just that, last ditch responses to surprise attacks you didn't see coming.
If you saw the knife/bottle/whatever already, then you would just move the hell away.
Yes they are last ditch, but if you are gonna train such things....find the best options rather than settling on what is in the curriculum.
Sgt. Slaphead -sebastard - I train them regularly, as with the knife defenses.
Having said that, it's one of those things I would only try if I was pretty sure I'm about to die anyway. Same with knife defenses. If it's about my wallet, have my wallet. If I'm not convinced you're going to use your weapon on me, or I can get away, great.
It's really a last ditch do or die option IMO.
As a side note, the GJJ defenses for overhand/underhand stabs/blows are basically just that, last ditch responses to surprise attacks you didn't see coming.
If you saw the knife/bottle/whatever already, then you would just move the hell away.
Yes they are last ditch, but if you are gonna train such things....find the best options rather than settling on what is in the curriculum.
I don't disagree.
the only gun defense your gonna need and it's the highest percentage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo
old lady defeats 13 attackers with this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvRvOHWzws
bear mace would have a lesser charge in some countrys also so it's a win win
Well, I don't train gun takeaways much but I do train Glock via IDPA, USPSA, Speed Steel, and 3 gun.
shen -
I certainly never have had a real gun trained on me. I have however taken many different "defense against the armed assailant classes", taught by all sorts of instructors, a couple well known handgun teachers, a couple well known Krav Maga teachers, a few Jujutsu instructors, one crazy Aikido/ Self Defense teacher, a WWII era combatives/ Kali instructor, a SWAT trainer, former Special Forces/Aikido guy, a Combat Sambo instructor (work paid for me to train in person with multiple different instructors to see what's is out there). I believe I have a pretty solid sense of what is being taught by various people. And of course I've done a lot of adrenal stress scenarios on this topic. There is a LOT of commonailty among the better stuff.
The Gracies defenses I have seen are not the absolute worst --they are on par with the traditional jiu jitsu ones I was taught-- but they do not rank up there, IMO, because: 1) They are too complicated; they add an "extra" unnecessary layer of technique and that's NOT a good thing under extreme stress and 2) they are too specific; they do the typical TMA thing where you have x number of different defenses for x number different attacks. Under such extreme stress, the brain is less likely to effectively recall what to do when given so much choice. The best defenses I have seen can be learned in a few minutes. They need to be absurdly simple and easy to generalize to a wide number of attacks. The actual "techinque" itself should not pose any sort of hurdle because the psychological and physiological hurdles will already be huge.
Common sense should tell us that survival should be the only goal of a gun defense. Stuff like RUNNING away should be factored into the decision making tree. Things like putting the assailant in a "goose neck wristlock" should NOT factor into to. All evidence says that it needs to be a SIMPLE, GROSS MOTOR action and you should train it under adrenal stress with the understanding that your window of opportunity to do such a thing is usually very small, if there even is one.
Shen - which instuctor did you like the best? Can you point me to any websites/videos/training camps? I personally like the Gracie gun defenses but I want to keep an open mind to try to see your point.
FatBuddha -shen -I certainly never have had a real gun trained on me. I have however taken many different "defense against the armed assailant classes", taught by all sorts of instructors, a couple well known handgun teachers, a couple well known Krav Maga teachers, a few Jujutsu instructors, one crazy Aikido/ Self Defense teacher, a WWII era combatives/ Kali instructor, a SWAT trainer, former Special Forces/Aikido guy, a Combat Sambo instructor (work paid for me to train in person with multiple different instructors to see what's is out there). I believe I have a pretty solid sense of what is being taught by various people. And of course I've done a lot of adrenal stress scenarios on this topic. There is a LOT of commonailty among the better stuff.
The Gracies defenses I have seen are not the absolute worst --they are on par with the traditional jiu jitsu ones I was taught-- but they do not rank up there, IMO, because: 1) They are too complicated; they add an "extra" unnecessary layer of technique and that's NOT a good thing under extreme stress and 2) they are too specific; they do the typical TMA thing where you have x number of different defenses for x number different attacks. Under such extreme stress, the brain is less likely to effectively recall what to do when given so much choice. The best defenses I have seen can be learned in a few minutes. They need to be absurdly simple and easy to generalize to a wide number of attacks. The actual "techinque" itself should not pose any sort of hurdle because the psychological and physiological hurdles will already be huge.
Common sense should tell us that survival should be the only goal of a gun defense. Stuff like RUNNING away should be factored into the decision making tree. Things like putting the assailant in a "goose neck wristlock" should NOT factor into to. All evidence says that it needs to be a SIMPLE, GROSS MOTOR action and you should train it under adrenal stress with the understanding that your window of opportunity to do such a thing is usually very small, if there even is one.
<br /> <span class="User-114832" id="userPost52440478">Shen - which instuctor did you like the best? Can you point me to any websites/videos/training camps? I personally like the Gracie gun defenses but I want to keep an open mind to try to see your point.</span></blockquote>
I can't pick one. They all have something to offer, but I'll narrow it...
InSights Training Center in Bellview ,WA (trained with John Holschen). Excellent training all aound. http://www.insightstraining.com/ Guy was just a true pro.
(Mark Worland, exceptional private instructor in the Los Angles area (no website/DVDs). Everything with him is word of mouth; he flies completely under the radar, but has trained with EVERYONE and trained all sorts of people and groups. Among other things, we did drills that included basically "tactical running"; which direction to run, if you have a choice, that makes it harder to track, shoveing and running. But, this name is probably not helpful to you).
Richard Dimitri (Senshido) is awesome, thoughful and simple http://senshido.com/
Moni Aizik (Commando Krav Maga) Now this guy IS all about making instructors and franchizing, making $$$ etc. Very commerical, I know. BUT I took a gun defense seminar and it was just really good. I haven't seen his DVDs though http://commandokravmaga.com/html/. Also did a weekend long intensive Weapon defense seminar with the Krav Maga World Wide Organization and I liked his stuff more.
I've never trained with Kelly McCann (aka "Jim Grover"), but I like his gun stuff. I like his DVDs. http://www.paladin-press.com/category/Kelly_McCann_aka_Jim_Grover But really there's a lot of overlap between Fairbairn style WWII era combatives --which McCann basically teaches an updated version of-- and old school Krav Maga.