Historically significant changes in BJJ?

Was Judo really widely popular in Brazil before Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was born ?
That makes the whole story even stranger.

Is that the real reason they called what they did 'Jiu-Jitsu'? To differeniate themselves from the many Judo schools around?

Some of the official history is really strange. White washing to make yourself look better is easy to understand.

But why say the triangle choke was learnt in the 70s by reading a judo book (hence giving credit to judo anyway) if it was taught to them and widely known in judo anyway?
That makes no sense at all.

And the Americana being a term to deem American's as gay is comedy gold. I've never heard that before.

I hate to break it to everyone but there are only so many ways to bend an arm and choke a neck. It has been going on since the beginning of time so no one style holds a monopoly.

Is it possible that when you train enough, some techniques just become self evident even though you were never specifically taught it? Doesn't mean it wasn't around before you, just that no one specifically showed you the move.

JJ Foreva, agreed. I was not refering to historical references, but to modern day bjj "histories" where (and this is not always the case) pains are taken to ensure no references are made to judo, not even in reference to Kimura himself!

I don't see any of this as any kind of stupid modern judo v bjj argument, the thread was started to disuss the difficult subject of bjj's historical development. Whatever your views are, it is hard to deny that marketing has a big influence on many peoples views.

If you want to see a real debate over the development of bjj, put Carley, Rorion, Relyson and Renzo in a room!

shen - On Carlson Jr.'s old set (the one with Marcelo & Conan) they instead refer to that submission as the "Francesa" (French Armbar).


LOL, is this 100% true? And how do I pronounce "Francesa", 'cause I'm going to start using that!

fran-seh-za

Grizzly Gym - 
shen - On Carlson Jr.'s old set (the one with Marcelo & Conan) they instead refer to that submission as the "Francesa" (French Armbar).


LOL, is this 100% true? And how do I pronounce "Francesa", 'cause I'm going to start using that!



That is true.

As to WHY they did that, it is speculation of my part based on the story I heard about why the Americana is really called the Americana.

If they haven't, people should check out the three videos on Youtube of Tsunetane Oda, from about 1930-1940.

It's funny how the Gracies never mention Judo in Brazil. Your telling me that the Brazilians didn't have any Judo Olympians in the 70's/80's? I bet the Gracies had many encounters with Brazilian Judokas (considering the significant Japanese influence). The techniques were always there but I guess they chose not to mingle with Brazilian Judokas back in the day or atleast chose not to mention it as part of their history.

sankyo - It's funny how the Gracies never mention Judo in Brazil. 


 Um...there were Gracies like Carlson who sent their kids to learn Judo. Carlson Jr. Is a blackbelt in judo. Rickson is as well.

Judo is (and always was) way bigger than BJJ in Brazil. In the Olympics of 72, Chiaki Ishii (Japanese Brazilian) won a medal in the Judo olympics and they have been doing well since (with the first gold medal by Aurélio Miguel on 1988)...

If you hear some old Carlson Gracie interview he always says that Judo and Jiu Jitsu are the same thing, but the Judo guys focus on one part of Jiu jitsu (taking down and control).

Some interesting facts:

-Americana was not named because of the American wrestler. Carlson told that story (about Rolls) just to look good with the americans...

-the kimura/americana was always called the same thing: "americana". Only in the recent years that the kimura name catch up. Helio always used the name americana..

-They didn't thought that the "kimura" was doable from side-control, that's why they were shocked when Kimura(the person) broke Helios arm with it... They only used the americana from side control.

Royler was supposedly great in Judo. Olympic alternate or almost made the national team? Doesn't matter. He was supposedly ranked highly in Brazil.

I have no problem believing that Judo and GJJ could coexist simultaneously without much mutual acknowedgement, but this

kirby15143 - Is it possible that when you train enough, some techniques just become self evident even though you were never specifically taught it?


seems ituitively correct too. How could the Gracies spend decades refining their ground science, coming from a Judo base no less, and not know moves like the Americana and triangle choke? Yet, we have documentation from the Gracies themselves that this was somehow the case. Do we not believe them? Why would they lie about something so odd; how does it possibly benefit the GJJ mythology?

Again, what was Helio's ground game really like, I wonder?

The triangle was discovered by judoka after Maeda left Japan. And please drop the "kosen judoka have been..." because Kosen Judo was also formed after Maeda left. So the Gracies wouldn't have known shit about it.

Kimura broke Helio's arm with a ude garame/kimura. I cannot imagine that the Gracies did not think one could possibly turn the kimura the other way and use that as a submission.

Rolls Gracie studied Judo under George Mehdi (who was at one time Helio's student for BJJ and also studied under Isao Okano, he is in old videos with both on youtube). Given that George Mehdi is a walking Judo book who focuses 50% tachi-waza 50% ne-waza "how it should be", I find it curious that it took one of Roll's student's to find the triangle in a book.

...the Americana is shown in this video. It is supposedly from the 50s.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=k1RurfbNu6g

50's Gracie Jiu Jitsu

Awesome video, RobbieH.

There's an 'americana' at 3:45 - I guess they had it well before Bob Anderson trained with Rolls.

Thanks for posting that Robbie H!

Stories can get exaggerated and reinterpreted over the years, especially when you are translating from another language.

The story of the Americana can be true AND they could have known about submission from the beginning. How?

Perhaps when someone asks R_____ Gracie "where did the americana come from?" perhaps R____ Gracie misunderstood and answered where the NAME americana comes from. It is quite possible that the American wrestler mentioned showed them some variations or setups that they didn't know, and they named it after him. Perhaps there was a whole game developed around his moves - the americana game, and eventually the sub itself took on that name. Perhaps they liked the guy so much they just started call it Americana after him.

How could Rolls discover the Triangle in a book in the 1970s, yet it was known by Judo in Brazil long before then?

Perhaps they knew of the triangle, but nobody had perfected it until Rolls saw some details in a book to really flesh out their use of it. Rolls then didn't discover the move itself, but he would have thus been credited with popularizing the move, or advancing the move. Or showing that the move works with the BJJ game when it may have been dismissed before.

The possibilities are endless and plausible when dealing with a language barrier and decades of time. We have to take all these stories just like you do any time some old guy talks. "We landed at Normandy and advanced 30 miles south to French city X." Just because French City X is 50 miles south doesn't mean that the veteran wasn't at Normandy killin' nazis, it just means that he's old and mistaken.

Good points Ninten Do, these types of "histories" are very difficult to trace exactly. However, when Rorion puts a history of GJJ on the internet and makes a point of only referring to Meada and Kimura as jiu jitsu fighters that is not an interpretation, that is pure marketing.

@ Nintendo

I am thinking somewhere along those lines.

I don't know how it was back then, but from what you see today, the sankaku-jime is more frequently used from the top in Judo (obviously because everyone turtles nowadays). Maybe Rolls just started using it a lot from guard, or they weren't practicing it before he re-discovered it for whatever reason.

Too bad the only people who really KNOW (because they were there) all have a different recollection of the event.

On a totally unrelated note, to the above poster: Not every German soldier fighting in WWII was a Nazi.

In the end it is always someone's son killing someone else's