Hi guys,
I tried to post something like this earlier, but it doesn't seem to have worked, so forgive me if you see a very similar thread pop up later or something.
I think we've all heard the story that BJJ didn't even have the triangle choke until Rolls saw it in a Judo book in the '70s. Is this actually true? And if so, are there other similar significant changes in BJJ that we can actually point to a specific time and incident? If so, I'd love to hear more.
Part of what I'm wondering is, ultimately, what was Helio's skill set, and how does it differ from the modern BJJ black belt?
Thanks for any informed discussion.
Wasn't Rolls, was one of Rolls students who saw it in a judo book and started doing it in Rolls's class. And I'm sure the Carlos Gracie book his daughter wrote would have a ton of such instances.
See? I'm already learning stuff! Keep it coming, please!
I've heard of the Carlos book, and I saw another poster mention here that he's reading it now...any insights?
Stuff like x-guard, half guard(as on offensive position), inverted, spider, and de la riva have all either been invented or become popular in the last 20-25 years. It's certainly possible people were doing it in the early days, but everything I've read suggests they weren't common until recently.
Jigoro Kano was having difficulty with one of his training partners. He found a book on wrestling that showed the fireman's carry, and implemented it to throw his partner. It became part of the Judo curriculum as Kata Guruma (shoulder wheel).
IF Maeda didn't teach the Gracie's the Triangle Choke nor the Americana as are both sometimes claimed, then what exactly DID he teach them...?
I mean, you would CERTAINLY learn those two submissions if you studied newaza heavy Judo for the amount of time the Gracies are reported to have studied with Maeda.
Exactly, Shen. I'm a little confused as to how moves like that could be left out. I hadn't heard about the Americana, though; when is that reputed to have been added, and how?
What was Helio's game like, exactly?
LOL,Even IF Maeda didn't teach Sankaku jime (triangle) and Ude Garami (Americana) then
George Mehdi and Oswaldo Alves certainly would have done before Roll's time.
I'm a massive fan of Roll's,but c'mon...................
Grizzly Gym - Exactly, Shen. I'm a little confused as to how moves like that could be left out. I hadn't heard about the Americana, though; when is that reputed to have been added, and how?
What was Helio's game like, exactly?
In 'The Gracie Way' Kid Peligro reports that Rol's learn't 'The Americana' from Bob Anderson who was in Brazil coaching the national wrestling team.Roll's was on the team and excdhanged techniques with him.
I believe the truth is probably that Mr Anderson used 'The Chicken Wing' as his main submission (probably been passed to him from catch wrestlers) and due to his liking for it Rolls probably started calling 'the americana' in honour of him as a friendly joke.
There is NO WAY that Maeda didn't teach that technique.Maeda studied Judo AND catch wrestling (when he was in the UK Before he went to Brazil) and Ude Grami/Chicken Wing/keylock/Americana is a staple of both systems.
Lumbricus terrestris - The Prison Guard.
So revolutionary that the gracies invented a time machine to go back and educate their younger selves with the wisdom of professor bravo.
LOL!!!!!!
So the Gracies learned the Triangle Choke from a book, The Americana from a Wrestler and the Kimura from Masahiko Kimura...?
Again, WTF did Gracie JJ look like back then...?
***
OH, BTW... I ALSO was told by a Brazilian that the name "Americana" comes from the fact that when you apply an Americana on someone it puts the person in a "fay/gay looking" position --with their hand up by their head. So they called it the "Americana" as a slam against Americans, because Americans are "fags".
On Carlson Jr.'s old set (the one with Marcelo & Conan) they instead refer to that submission as the "Francesa" (French Armbar).
In my mind the reason they did this was because they thought "Americana" was rude to say to an American audience. Again, that is my interpretation of possibly why they called it that. I don't know for a fact.
Anyone know what I'm talking about...?
I have never remembered to ask Jr. about it, but I want to find out. I have always been curious about that.
shen -
OH, BTW... I ALSO was told by a Brazilian that the name "Americana" comes from the fact that when you do it to someone it puts the person in a "gay looking" position --with their hand up by their head. So they called it the "Americana" as a slam against Americans because Americans are "fags".
On Carlson Jr.'s old set they refer to this submission as the "Francesa" (French Armbar).
In my mind the reason they did this was because they thought "Americana" was rude to say to Americans. Again, that is my interpretation of possibly why they called it that. I don't know for a fact.
Anyone know what I am talking about...?
I have never remembered to ask Jr. about it, but I want to find out. I have always been curious about that.
lol
Thanks for all the info guys, please, keep it coming!
shen - So the Gracies learned the Triangle Choke from a book, The Americana from a Wrestler and the Kimura from Masahiko Kimura...?
Again, WTF did Gracie JJ look like back then...?
Chris Haueter is a great competitor and instructor, not much of a historian appearently LOL.
The Gracies did not live on Dr Evil's island cut off from the rest of the world except for surfing to Copacabana beach to street fight once a day. Sankaku-jime (triangle chokes) and ude garami (word for all variations of bent arm locks incl "americana" and "kimura") have always been common in judo since the earliest days.
The Gracies did not only start by learning judo from Meada, they live(d) in Brazil where judo was very, very popular with the general population but also with the Gracie family itself, most of the well known bjj legends were black belts in judo.
Maybe judo in Brazil developed in isolation from the rest of the world and some techniques were somehow lost? Not likely given that Brazil had the largest population of Japanese outside of Japan and the fact that Brazilians were competing and training internationally since the mid-1950s.
At the end of the day, more power to the Gracies for realizing that it is not enough for something to be good to be marketable, you have to convince people that it is unique and that only you can sell the real secrets (Helio's "pure water" and whatnot). Too bad credit is not given where its due to Kano's revolutionary approach to martial arts at the turn of the century because of $ in 2009. - Koga!
Koga, I agree that it seems really unlikely ("The Gracies did not live on Dr Evil's island cut off from the rest of the world except for surfing to Copacabana beach to street fight once a day" - LOL!) but the account of Rolls' student introducing the triangle choke seems well-documented, and how else can we explain the traditional GJJ guard pass that involves putting yourself into a triangle?
So let me get this straight,helio discovered the leverage points of jiujitsu but did not know about the triangle choke? a technique done for many years by kosen judo guys way before rolls student ever discovered it?
What exactly did helio discover?
Grizzley, good question. I don't consider accounts by Kid Peligro or others involved in marketing bjj to be accurate, it is a bit ridiculous for example to refer to Kimura, who dedicated his life to judo, as a "jui jitsu champion from Japan". I'm not going to get into the whole thing about "bjj is judo but judo is jui jitsu", but there is a clear difference between marketing and history.
I don't think that the guard pass shown on the first Rorion bjj tapes is a traditional bjj guard pass, it was just a simple way to show basics that were presumed to be used against inexperienced opponents. The go under one leg smash pass is my favorite but when we first learned it in judo in the early 90s, it was always taught to control the hips and "other leg" before trying it. Those tapes came out after the first UFCs, so mid-90s or so. Interesting to watch bjj tournament footage from those days, as much as the game has changed, basics like never have one arm in, one arm out remain unchanged.
Thanks, Koga, very interesting points. Obviously, it seems nonsensical to think of anyone practicing ne-waza for decades without a triangle or americana!
Okay, so allowing for the fact that the stories of these moves being added later are disuptable, what other moves can we trace to specific dates of supposed introduction to the BJJ stream?
BTW, I recently heard how Helio came up with the idea for the Armbar...
Helio was walking through a wheat field and noticed that all the wheat stalks that were bent too far by the wind were unable to continue growing, became brittle and withered.
He thought: "How can I apply this concept to jiu jitsu?"
He went into the dojo and (with his brothers acting as helpers) for 7 days and nights tirelessly experimented with how to apply this concept.
One week later, when he emerged from that room, the modern-day Armbar had been born.
True story.
This is a tired argument...
Why are judokas trolling a BJJ forum?