Historically significant changes in BJJ?

laqueus - I think what we can do here is step back and look at Judo for a minute.

Now by all accounts, Judo had leg locks in the beginning. At some point they were taken out and stopped being practiced. Certain other techniques such as scissor takedowns were also taken out. At this point it seems that only certain arm locks are allowed too. So we can clearly see in a style quite similar to BJJ that techniques that were originally part of the curriculum at some point left.

Now imagine the same thing happening with BJJ. Triangle is originally there, but for whatever reason gets dropped. Then at some point in the 70s gets rediscovered. It's quite plausible. You're even seeing this with Judo now with Judoka, due to BJJ, working more on Newaza than they did before, and of course the techniques were in Judo before, but they were just not practiced for a long time.


I cannot imagine the same thing happening with BJJ because leglocks and scissor takedowns were intentionally removed from the rulesets. Should they have remained legal they would still be used today as they are effective techniques.

The lack of newaza in today's Judo is a similar situation, newaza has been severely limited in shiai over the years and thus is not as often practiced. Contrary to what you have said, there isn't really any BJJ techniques out there that are being "reintroduced" that have any solid place in today's competitive Judo.

The triangle choke is an effective technique. I don't think its plausible that it disappeared in BJJ simply because it "went out of style". Im pretty sure the best theory is that Maeda didn't know it... the Gracies didn't know it.

What were the rules for different belts in the past? I know white belts aren't allowed leg locks in competition, blues are.

There ought to be some documentation to track.

And even though ground work continues to get limited in Judo competition, Judoka are training it more, so competition rules aren't the only driving factor there.

According to one usually knowledgeable poster at Judoforum in "1933 No.6 highschool developed Sankaku-jime, at first it was a flying Sankaku-jime". I don't know if that is true... I kinda suspect the date to be much earlier.


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FWIW, Here is Oda who got his black Belt in 1911 and who's nickname was "Sankaku" ("Triangle"). He is really the "Father" of Kosen Judo and the main reason Kano put more newaza in Kodokan Judo.

He is shown doing the Triangle Choke, Americana, Omoplata, Rodado Choke, somersault guard pass, Knee slide pass... you name a BJJ technique and he does it. I don't know the date on this but I would guess no later than 1930's at the very latest. The guy wrote a 700 page volume just on newaza! Man, I would like to see that.


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3 parts, picture is not great, but I find it very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1pZkv1trEI

laqueus - What were the rules for different belts in the past? I know white belts aren't allowed leg locks in competition, blues are.


I was talking about their removal from Judo and how that is an inadequate premise for your theory that the triangle was "lost" in BJJ.

laqueus - And even though ground work continues to get limited in Judo competition, Judoka are training it more, so competition rules aren't the only driving factor there.


Yes but competitive Judoka have perfectly good reasons to completely ignore their newaza training because of the retarded rule changes (and remember, every time the IJF changes the rules, a 10th dan developes cancer). There is absolutely no reason why everyone in BJJ (despite being a smaller group) not only thought that the triangle was way-uncool but had never even seen or known how to perform it.

ttt

Interestingly about techniques getting "lost", one of the judo Masterclass books, mentioned this theory. It may have actually been Kashiwazaki's book on Osaekomi (this also covers the Kosen judo influence). He said techniques are re-discovered because of a certain player. He mentioned Koga's 1-arm seoi-nage and sode-tsuri-komi-goshi. He wasn't the first who executed these throws that way and was seen in other tournaments but Koga made it popular again. Consequently, everyone wanted to do this technique and credited as Koga-style. There were others that were mentioned but the names just didn't stand out.

Back to Kosen judo. It was a set of rules to apply for high schools tournament. Not sure if this meant secondary school or university level. They were newaza specialists and not a different style of JJ/judo. They dominated the tournaments and Kano didn't want his art to become predominantly newaza so he changed the rules to begin from tachiwaza in 1925(?). Until today there are only 7 universities to compete under the kosen rules. I think Oda was written in the Kodokan archives as a newaza specialist and not from a different school of JJ.

HoldYerGround - 
Grizzly Gym - 
HoldYerGround -
Do your homework. Maeda never even heard the term Kosen Judo before he got to Brazil.


Source?
quote]

Maeda leaves Japan 1904.

First official Kosen tournament 1914:
http://www.kusu.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~judo/history-e.htm


I stand entirely corrected, sir!

khd29 -  I think Oda was written in the Kodokan archives as a newaza specialist and not from a different school of JJ.



Yes, Oda was DEFINITELY Kodokan Judo.

I'm certainly not implying otherwise.

But he was in large part responsible for some changes to the style, as were others.

khd29 - Interestingly about techniques getting "lost", one of the judo Masterclass books, mentioned this theory. It may have actually been Kashiwazaki's book on Osaekomi (this also covers the Kosen judo influence). He said techniques are re-discovered because of a certain player. He mentioned Koga's 1-arm seoi-nage and sode-tsuri-komi-goshi. He wasn't the first who executed these throws that way and was seen in other tournaments but Koga made it popular again. Consequently, everyone wanted to do this technique and credited as Koga-style. There were others that were mentioned but the names just didn't stand out.

Back to Kosen judo. It was a set of rules to apply for high schools tournament. Not sure if this meant secondary school or university level. They were newaza specialists and not a different style of JJ/judo. They dominated the tournaments and Kano didn't want his art to become predominantly newaza so he changed the rules to begin from tachiwaza in 1925(?). Until today there are only 7 universities to compete under the kosen rules. I think Oda was written in the Kodokan archives as a newaza specialist and not from a different school of JJ.



We see this all the time. A couple of years back Marcello Garcia tore up the ADCC using a choke from North South, the following day in gyms around the world, everyone was concentrating on it.

Aoki chokes Hansen out with a Gogoplata following day, lots of people are trying to add it to their game.

I even see this in my own training. I was taught the Brabo Choke years ago however it is only recently that due to a leg injury preventing me using my guard game I am in the position to use it a lot. Therefore I am working hard on it.

I trained with Rodrigo a couple of times and he showed me some details on the Guillotine that made it work better for me. Since then I think of it as the Rodrigo Guillotine.

CockneyBlue - 
I trained with Rodrigo a couple of times and he showed me some details on the Guillotine that made it work better for me. Since then I think of it as the Rodrigo Guillotine.


"Ice Cream scoop" grip and do a crunch?

Could be that the triangle choke was mostly attained in judo from the top position when your opponent is on all fours after being thrown. kosen guys probably played with it from their backs but it was not really a common technique seen in judo,especially from your back or in your guard.BJJ guys made it very popular to be used from the guard position and even thou it was always in judo,most judo guys hardly ever used it or exploited it from playing off their backs, like bjj players started doing. Except for maybe some kosen guys back in the day.Just guessing thou!

I have a wrestling book from the 1920s that shows the triangle choke. It has been around for a very long time, certainly before 1933.

Triangle choke in wrestling? What's the book?

That's funny, I was recently looking at a wrestling book at a college library. It was from the 1930's.

It was written by the coach for the U.S. Coast Guard wrestling team.

It was a very general-interest, "get to know" wrestling book but they taught the Americana(Top wrist Lock), Kimura (Keylock) and "Catch-style" Hammerlock.

I was surprised they included those submissions in what seemed to be a basic "H.S. wrestling" book.

It just shows how close Catch-Style and straight wrestling were back then.

http://www.amazon.com/Wrestling-Sandow-Lewis-Library-Strangler-Lewis/dp/1581606664/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260518747&sr=8-4

The Sandow-Lewis Library from 1926

Newaza freak - Could be that the triangle choke was mostly attained in judo from the top position when your opponent is on all fours after being thrown. kosen guys probably played with it from their backs but it was not really a common technique seen in judo,especially from your back or in your guard.BJJ guys made it very popular to be used from the guard position and even thou it was always in judo,most judo guys hardly ever used it or exploited it from playing off their backs, like bjj players started doing. Except for maybe some kosen guys back in the day.Just guessing thou!


Please read the thread before posting.

Y'know I actually heard the moon landing was a haux...

HoldYerGround - 
CockneyBlue - 
I trained with Rodrigo a couple of times and he showed me some details on the Guillotine that made it work better for me. Since then I think of it as the Rodrigo Guillotine.


"Ice Cream scoop" grip and do a crunch?


That is not the phrase he used but you use your forearm to block their shoulder so they can't get an arm over and defend.

Oh I was talking about the arm in guillotine. He has this little detail that he teaches where you curl your wrist around the rest of the guys throat to cover as much of his neck as possible.