I am 41 year old blackbelt focused on No-Gi so let me give you my opinion.
First of all I love leglocks I love the modern game and it is one of the fastest deeloping things with my students and training partners.
Secondly I love pressure passing and doing pressure and with the knowledge of leglocks you will come to the point where leglocks are just other submissions not better or the “magic pill” like in the beginning.
I wouldn´t focus on escaping. I would learn all I can about it. getting tapped and tapping people with it until you reach a point where you don´t get tapped more often from leglocks than from other submissions and you also don´t tap more people with leglocks than other submissions.
Then you have integrated the stuff and it will all make sense to you.
If you add pressure and pressure passing to it you will be able to give you game a direction. You can go into the leglock path or you can go a different path but you no longer hunted by leglocks but you will understand the whole picture.
Marcelo rarely teaches escapes specifically from leg lock positions- but he does emphasize what positions you have to be careful for- and where your feet should be.
You don’t need to play the leg lock game, but you have to be aware, and be able to impose your game on your opponent before they do it to you.
I've been an avid leglocker since the Ryan Hall 50/50 DVD. Like most submissions it's the position before the position that kill you. Once you let a decently skilled purple belt get to a solid leg control position you're too far behind. Yes there are good defenses but he has spent more time countering those defenses than you have spent working the defense. So you defend the position before the position.
As you mentioned the race is to get inside and elevate. I would say focus on the inside part. Deny deny deny inside foot placement. Doesn't matter if you understand what they are trying to go for what matter is that the overwhelming majority of setups require them to get inside control. Your leg pummeling needs to setup and alway maintain your legs either inside theirs or far away. Secondly even with inside control they need to control you kneeline. They need your knee to be somewhere between their own knees and their hip. You'll need to get in the habit of extracting your knee awat from them. Sometimes to do this you need to temporarily conceede position such as sitting to your butt and using your free leg to push off of their hip/butt/leg so you can pull your other leg out of the dangerous position.
Typically the problem comes when you let them grip your leg, get inside control, elevate, establish a leg control position and then start to fire your escapes. That's not going to work right now. Peel any type of grip on your ankle and constantly pummel your legs inside. You will notice you will shutdown most guys just by doing those two things.
Marcelo rarely teaches escapes specifically from leg lock positions- but he does emphasize what positions you have to be careful for- and where your feet should be.
You don’t need to play the leg lock game, but you have to be aware, and be able to impose your game on your opponent before they do it to you.
My favorite leg lock defense that Marcelo showed somewhere on Youtube is to simply make your whole entire body flat lol. Like just lie on your back with your legs extended like you are lying in bed. It’s funny to do because it will confuse leg lock guys.
Thanks for the replies guys. Lots to think about. I agree with what Shen is saying about chasing the latest fads vs bread and butter basics. Got me thinking though, it’s debatable what techniques and positions fall into each of those categories. Leg attacks have always been around, and they have definitely progressed in the last 5 years or so to the point where I am becoming more and more convinced that the honeyhole/saddle/inside cross ashi/whatever the kids are calling it, is just as controlling, dominant, and therefore legitimate a position as mount, side, or back. This seems to be the case with or without a gi (discounting competition rules,) and with or without strikes. So it’s hard for me to label leg attacks a fad and lump them in with stuff like “worm guard.”
I do find it surprising that Marcelo never became known for attacking the legs. Maybe he just didn’t need to, but his body type and overall game seems perfect for it. His whole thing was getting inside and elevating and taking advantage of the reaction
I agree that there's no magic in any specific technique, including leg locks. People become killers using very different tactics.
I don't think it matters if you embrace leg locks or skirt chokes or kimuras or back finishes or anything else.
People get good at what they work at. You see a guy who has spent all his time on legs locks finishing everyone and you think, "leg locks are the answer!". Then when you watch Marcelo finish everyone and think, "Taking the back is the answer!" Then you watch Roger and think, "Collar Chokes is the answer!". Then you watch Keenan and think "Lapel control is the answer!".
Which specific tactics are used is just not that important. It's the time and effort put into mastering it that is important.
I agree that there's no magic in any specific technique, including leg locks. People become killers using very different tactics.
I don't think it matters if you embrace leg locks or skirt chokes or kimuras or back finishes or anything else.
People get good at what they work at. You see a guy who has spent all his time on legs locks finishing everyone and you think, "leg locks are the answer!". Then when you watch Marcelo finish everyone and think, "Taking the back is the answer!" Then you watch Roger and think, "Collar Chokes is the answer!". Then you watch Keenan and think "Lapel control is the answer!".
Which specific tactics are used is just not that important. It's the time and effort put into mastering it that is important.
I am actually embarrassingly behind on what the current trends are in competition. I’d be hard pressed to name any prominent competitors outside of the guys you mentioned haha. I guess I just had a rough time returning to training after a number of years away. I expected to feel out of shape. I did NOT expect to get caught in situations where I felt completely LOST. I just need to stop ruminating and go train. Looking forward to putting the gi back on and seeing if I’m lost there too.
I have to agree and disagree. It is obviously important to put in the time and hard work but I think the top guys are great not only because they focused on their A game but because they have focused deeply on a complete game. They may go to their A game when in competition but Marcelo is not just a back guy, Danaher Death squad can do more than leg lock, etc.
Honestly, I believe that Marcelo, Keenan, and Roger have more knowledge about leg locks, the back mount, collar control, collar chokes, etc than most hobbiests, including black belt hobbiest, who choose to focus only on “their game” will ever have in any one category even if the elite guys don’t use them much or at all. I think it’s safe to say that Keenan for example may be known for lapel control but he has spent more time on leg locks than the “focused game” grappler has spent on their A game.
As Marcelo would say- you have your hands, your feet- why are you letting them get ahold of you? Why are you letting them get grips on you? Why are you letting them get underneath you to lift you?
You are a higher belt- dictate the pace, make them react to you- make them defend your game.
Don’t get sucked into their game, and then try to figure out how to get out of the honeyhole/411 position, or escape from a heel hook- it’s too late by then.
I've been an avid leglocker since the Ryan Hall 50/50 DVD. Like most submissions it's the position before the position that kill you. Once you let a decently skilled purple belt get to a solid leg control position you're too far behind. Yes there are good defenses but he has spent more time countering those defenses than you have spent working the defense. So you defend the position before the position.
As you mentioned the race is to get inside and elevate. I would say focus on the inside part. Deny deny deny inside foot placement. Doesn't matter if you understand what they are trying to go for what matter is that the overwhelming majority of setups require them to get inside control. Your leg pummeling needs to setup and alway maintain your legs either inside theirs or far away. Secondly even with inside control they need to control you kneeline. They need your knee to be somewhere between their own knees and their hip. You'll need to get in the habit of extracting your knee awat from them. Sometimes to do this you need to temporarily conceede position such as sitting to your butt and using your free leg to push off of their hip/butt/leg so you can pull your other leg out of the dangerous position.
Typically the problem comes when you let them grip your leg, get inside control, elevate, establish a leg control position and then start to fire your escapes. That's not going to work right now. Peel any type of grip on your ankle and constantly pummel your legs inside. You will notice you will shutdown most guys just by doing those two things.
Zero1 - I am 41 year old blackbelt focused on No-Gi so let me give you my opinion.
First of all I love leglocks I love the modern game and it is one of the fastest deeloping things with my students and training partners.
Secondly I love pressure passing and doing pressure and with the knowledge of leglocks you will come to the point where leglocks are just other submissions not better or the “magic pill” like in the beginning.
I wouldn´t focus on escaping. I would learn all I can about it. getting tapped and tapping people with it until you reach a point where you don´t get tapped more often from leglocks than from other submissions and you also don´t tap more people with leglocks than other submissions.
Then you have integrated the stuff and it will all make sense to you.
If you add pressure and pressure passing to it you will be able to give you game a direction. You can go into the leglock path or you can go a different path but you no longer hunted by leglocks but you will understand the whole picture.
kying418 - As Marcelo would say- you have your hands, your feet- why are you letting them get ahold of you? Why are you letting them get grips on you? Why are you letting them get underneath you to lift you?
You are a higher belt- dictate the pace, make them react to you- make them defend your game.
Don’t get sucked into their game, and then try to figure out how to get out of the honeyhole/411 position, or escape from a heel hook- it’s too late by then.
I also think Marcelo has a relentless attacking/pressuring game and he probably doesnt like to risk giving up position to try a leg lock?
he seems to be relentless fighting for top position where he can finish you or finishing you in the scramble (on the way to dominant position)
OP, 2hat is your "game"?.....do you/can you grip fight and know how to pressure and attack an oppon3nts positioni g and movement?
To give an 3xample...one of my partner is traijiij ng for next year judo nationals. I have an artritic hip a d bad shoulder, etc. there is no way im outzmanuevering him or beatijg him 5o 5he punch so to say in any way unless i use my 70lbs of mass and strentgh to just crush him.
bu5 i can out grip fight t5o dictate. A d once i get my grip i use it to induce pressure into him and root him, and kuzushI. I guess it would be good example of some aspect of 5he concept of "connection" so popular now with rickson and akins and 5heir crowd.....LOL, which I learned from picking the brains of a grouchy old judo sensei 20 yrs ago! It is also a product of my vale tudo study and game.My partner is also a 3or4stripe brown belt, so neither can i ou5maneuver him on ground.....but again i win grip fight and attack his position in various ways, in gi and no-gi. He uses these thingsagaisnt others when he goes to train and it screws up many opponennts rubberguard and "modern game"
The gist of all 5his can you dictate what is going on....make 5hem reac5ionary. Because it sounds like you are the one being dictated to. Obviously, som3 of that can be ring-rust, but it may also indicate you dont have some aspects of grips&grip fighting, and pressure oriented jiujitsu developed.
You need to stop letting people get underneath you. You can't get leg locked from the bottom if the guy's hips and back are flat on the mat.
Gospel right there. Pressure shuts down a lot. I remember Fabio Gurgel doing an interview saying in his heyday, he showed Rickson X guard and some sweeps and set ups from X. After pondering a few seconds Rickson said "how you gonna get under me"? Fabio said he had no answers.
Leglocks are not a « trend » and it’s not something you can ignore or chose. It‘ s a whole new game of control, a whole new hierarchy of positions. You don’t lose position with leglocks, you gain better and better control until the sub. You can’t also just study « defense », You won’t understand anything by that.
forget bodycomb, delgado, etc... the danaher way is the way to go, his guys have changed the bjj world by the kind of control they can apply, and the system between the core positions.
you can’t also just deny the elevation game because you have even better and easier entries from the top (back step, legdrag, etc)
the modern leglock game is becoming a fundamental bjj knowledge and I’m happy the ibjjf can’t do anything about it