"perhaps english is not your first language, so i will be gentle..."
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
It seems english might not be your first language mate. Or maybe you just have a reading disability. No matter how many paragraphs you write ambulance chasing style it doesnt matter because the above paragraph contradicts you
Again. You do not get to define what control is. You do not work for the commission or have anything to do with how the scoring was written. Thus the only thing you can go by is what is written. And it specifically contradicts you
a striker stuffing a takedown is under your logic REACTING to someone elses action. But the scoring still says that fending off a takedown is counted as octagon control. Thus Condit escaping is still octagon control
Not that any of this matters. Octagon control is not as valued as clean striking wich Condit obviously won
"It sounds like you wanted Carlos to get backed into a fence and get beat on, instead of making Nick fight in the center all night"
He made a thread predicting how Diaz was going to kill Condit. This is just him being a whiny baby for being wrong.
disbeliever -he was not FORCING nick to reset...nick chose to reset by following condit...goku -orcus - " u have to focus on control and aggression which nick won."Kalib didn't let quarry do what he wanted to do either. Control means causing your opponent to do something. Diaz was causing condit to move backwards and away the while fight Condit was not causing Diaz to anything Any other interpretation of control is an absurd stretch
So Nick won "control" even though you said yourself Condit didn't let Nick do what he wanted to do? What did Nick do to keep Condit from doing what he wanted? Because as far as I can tell Condit did it all night long.
Your not seriously comparing Carlos to Starnes, are you?
That works both ways. Carlos was forcing Nick to reset in the middle after every exchange. How is that any different than Nick "forcing" Carlos back?
It sounds like you wanted Carlos to get backed into a fence and get beat on, instead of making Nick fight in the center all night
Gokudamus stole my name - "perhaps english is not your first language, so i will be gentle..."lol@ambulence chasing style...what does that even mean?
2. A striker who fends off a grappler's takedown attempt to remain standing and effectively strike is octagon control.
It seems english might not be your first language mate. Or maybe you just have a reading disability. No matter how many paragraphs you write ambulance chasing style it doesnt matter because the above paragraph contradicts you
Again. You do not get to define what control is. You do not work for the commission or have anything to do with how the scoring was written. Thus the only thing you can go by is what is written. And it specifically contradicts you
a striker stuffing a takedown is under your logic REACTING to someone elses action. But the scoring still says that fending off a takedown is counted as octagon control. Thus Condit escaping is still octagon control
Not that any of this matters. Octagon control is not as valued as clean striking wich Condit obviously won
and i note that you are highlighting the second prong of octagon control but totally ignoring the first prong relating to dictating, which is the determining meausre in this fight...nice try with the red herring tho
disbeliever -r u? u really think condit is controlling nick by running away? if usain bolt entered mma and sprintied in circles running away from his opponent is he controlling his opponent by not allowing his opponent to engage with him?goku -disbeliever -he was not FORCING nick to reset...nick chose to reset by following condit...goku -orcus - " u have to focus on control and aggression which nick won."Kalib didn't let quarry do what he wanted to do either. Control means causing your opponent to do something. Diaz was causing condit to move backwards and away the while fight Condit was not causing Diaz to anything Any other interpretation of control is an absurd stretch
So Nick won "control" even though you said yourself Condit didn't let Nick do what he wanted to do? What did Nick do to keep Condit from doing what he wanted? Because as far as I can tell Condit did it all night long.
Your not seriously comparing Carlos to Starnes, are you?
That works both ways. Carlos was forcing Nick to reset in the middle after every exchange. How is that any different than Nick "forcing" Carlos back?
It sounds like you wanted Carlos to get backed into a fence and get beat on, instead of making Nick fight in the center all night
So your trolling? Gotcha
u really think condit is controlling nick by running away?
Except that Condit repeatedly punched Nick in the head. In fact he often out-boxed diaz while moving away from the cage.
Honestly, the best thing Nick could have done other than use better angles and kicks to keep Condit from moving out of range was to stop chasing him. But Nick is too fucking stupid to adapt in the cage when his opponent won't do what he wants.
"and i note that you are highlighting the second prong of octagon control but totally ignoring the first prong relating to dictating, which is the determining meausre in this fight...nice try with the red herring tho"
If the 2nd prong contradicts your interpretation of the first prong then obviously your interpretation of what octagon control is is flawed.
Or are you actually suggesting that the people who wrote this meant that octagon control is about action and then immediatly they wrote a 2nd paragraph that contradicts the first?
Yes thats much more likely than you not knowing what you are talking about
"I saw Diaz get his leg fucked up (he changed stance several times)"
Diaz changes his stance all the time in fights, he's a right handed fighter who has trained to fight southpaw.
The thing that gets me is that there are a ton of fights where one guy clearly out strikes the other but loses due to "aggression" but in a fight where the striking is close all of a sudden it goes out the window. Plus now leg kicks actually do win fights according to Cecil.
Fly Rodder -this is a misconception...that nick does not have good footwork or doesnt understand the concept of angles...he backed condit into the cage all night..that requires footwork and angle...if your opponent turns and runs tho, there really isnt anything you can do in an octagon that is huge...its much more difficult to escape when its a boxing ring...and yeah, nick couldnt do what he wanted, which was engage in a fight, but that doesnt mean condit winsu really think condit is controlling nick by running away?
Except that Condit repeatedly punched Nick in the head. In fact he often out-boxed diaz while moving away from the cage.
Honestly, the best thing Nick could have done other than use better angles and kicks to keep Condit from moving out of range was to stop chasing him. But Nick is too fucking stupid to adapt in the cage when his opponent won't do what he wants.
Gokudamus stole my name - "and i note that you are highlighting the second prong of octagon control but totally ignoring the first prong relating to dictating, which is the determining meausre in this fight...nice try with the red herring tho"when i was talking about being reactive v. proavtive i was specially referring to the first prong since takedowns/grappling was not a significant part of this fight
If the 2nd prong contradicts your interpretation of the first prong then obviously your interpretation of what octagon control is is flawed.
Or are you actually suggesting that the people who wrote this meant that octagon control is about action and then immediatly they wrote a 2nd paragraph that contradicts the first?
Yes thats much more likely than you not knowing what you are talking about
"Except that Condit repeatedly punched Nick in the head. In fact he often out-boxed diaz while moving away from the cage."
In the first round, which seems to be the only one in question, Diaz landed more head shots then Carlos.
gogoplatamonkey -condit wanted to be backed into the cage all night? rly?Fly Rodder -u really think condit is controlling nick by running away?
Except that Condit repeatedly punched Nick in the head. In fact he often out-boxed diaz while moving away from the cage.
Honestly, the best thing Nick could have done other than use better angles and kicks to keep Condit from moving out of range was to stop chasing him. But Nick is too fucking stupid to adapt in the cage when his opponent won't do what he wants.
YUP HENCE OCTAGON CONTROL, Diaz fought Condits fight because Condit dictated how, when and where it took place. It pretty simple logic really
" u really think condit is controlling nick by running away?"
When Nick wanted to attack, he was usually unable to because Condit moved away. When Condit wanted to attack, he did, successfully. Condit landed more than his usual amount of strikes per round (based on his UFC averages); Nick landed vastly less than his usual. These two things make it clear to me that Condit was the one dictating the fight.
goku -stlnl2 -U honestly don't believe that condit won effective aggression? Do u?goku - And even if u want to rationalize some crazy interpretation of control and we agree to disagree, then we look at aggression which Diaz Clearly won.
Aggression isn't criteria, so what do you mean? If you mean EFFECTIVE aggression (which is criteria) one guy had a smashed leg, was visibly tired, and a busted face,so......
Well, I define effective as the guy who had an effect on his opponent. Both guys threw punches and kicks, ONE guy had a busted leg and face...so.....
u guys are great at trying to spin things, but you are totally missing the point...someone running away causing the opponent to chase after him does not = octagon control
let me give you guys a clear, concrete example, because its clear that your stubborness is preventing you guys from seeing things objectively
take de la hoya v. mayweather...yes, its boxing, but octagon control comes from the concept of ring generalship..
in that fight mayweather nearly DOUBLED the amount of punches landed to de la hoya..but he won a very narrow split decision...why? because mayweather was moving away nearly the whole fight...and floyd didnt even actually turn and round like carlos did...
again, ESCAPING control is not the same as HAVING control..u really need to grasp this point..a fighter is not in control if all he is doing is escpaing...
He also isnt in control if his face and leg are busted.....
Make no mistake, I didnt like the path Carlos took, but I had him winning at the end of the fight, and I could certainly see a case for Diaz winning, but folks claiming robbery, are just flat out off.
stlnl2 - He also isnt in control if his face and leg are busted.....
Make no mistake, I didnt like the path Carlos took, but I had him winning at the end of the fight, and I could certainly see a case for Diaz winning, but folks claiming robbery, are just flat out off.
u r confusing strikes with control...these are 2 different criteria..so to say, hey look at diaz's face or legs, that is not responsive to the question of who had control
goku -stlnl2 - He also isnt in control if his face and leg are busted.....
Make no mistake, I didnt like the path Carlos took, but I had him winning at the end of the fight, and I could certainly see a case for Diaz winning, but folks claiming robbery, are just flat out off.
u r confusing strikes with control...these are 2 different criteria..so to say, hey look at diaz's face or legs, that is not responsive to the question of who had control
Control means it happens the way you want it to happen, if one guy wants to swarm the other guy and punch in punches, and the other wants to avoid an extended engagement, land a shot or two and step off, and the fight goes one way, and not the other...who has control?
I have attended the training they give judges for MMA, and I hate to tell you, by their criteria, there is (and was I guess) a very winnable case for Condit winning that area of the fight (control) since he made the fight happen, where (he avoided takedowns) and how (pot shotting and moving) he wanted it to happen.
" in that fight mayweather nearly DOUBLED the amount of punches landed to de la hoya..but he won a very narrow split decision...why? "
Because Oscar threw many more than Floyd did, and since the judges don't have the benefit of compubox numbers, multiple camera angles, and replays, all they saw was one guy moving forward and throwing more.
Condit didn't just outland Nick, he outthrew him too. When one guy appears to be throwing and landing more -- regardless of what the final official tally is -- judges are going to give him the rounds, at least given the fact that the round is 100% standup and no strike has any more demonstrable significance than any other (i.e. no one's getting wobbled or dropped or cut open). Add in the fact that one guy does what he wants, when he wants, while the other is following him around the ring, swinging at air, and mumbling to himself and throwing up his hands in frustration, and it's not hard to figure out.