OK; it would seem I am going to be forced to go here. It is a shame really because this is going to be a major debate; and it is ALL been said and done before.
That said; a lot of things in the interview are just opinion posing as fact. It is to those opinions that I address my comments.
First; to the is there a difference between BJJ and Judo:
"They are very different arts. Judo is harder to learn than Jiu-Jitsu. But Jiu-Jitsu is harder to become great at. I think Jiu-Jitsu has endless possibilities. There are so many techniques that haven?t even been discovered yet. And there are some that are created right in front of my eyes almost everyday."
I guess we now have to define "different". The "rules" of both games create a different way to play; so on this I agree. They are different like the XFL is different from the NHL, but they are both football. What they are doing is NOT jujutsu. It came from Kodokan Judo and we have yet to see ANYTHING that refutes that.
I would also submit that the very nature of Kodokan Judo as created by Kano was to create an environment where "new" techniques would be discovered. I have seen that everywhere the Kano methods are used. BJJ is no different.
"Bottom line, Judo on the ground is forced and less technical. Jiu Jitsu is pure technique. Technique is not forced. It is used. The more technique the guy has, the less muscle and force he has to use."
The strength thing is interesting but has been proven time and time again to matter against ANYONE. Were it not so we wouldn't hear so much about weight differences when trying to explain why a technique doesn't work, or why someone lost.
While it is one of the common comments to say Judo is all strength and BJJ is all technique; objective proof of this is somewhat lacking. Using USA Judo to prove your points is like using the Chinese Basketball team as an example of the NBA. I would submit that there are many ways to look at Judo; and "power Judo" is another style. It is one that has worked for the people who use it.
"Judo would have better matwork if the rules did not hurt it. In Judo, you have to be active on the mat or they will stand you up."
I agree
"Most Judo guys hate the mat, they tend to ball up (giving your back) and wait until they call Mate (stop). Meaning, Judo players have bad habits. It took me a while to get rid of these habits."
If you turtled at my Uncles school you got stomped in the head, do it at mine you get the same. Not all schools teach in the same way.
"Not only this, I have not been to any Judo club, in the US or Japan, that teaches matwork as technical as any Jiu-Jitsu schools I have been too."
First, we have to agree on a definition of "technical". It is clear that this is not really an objective article (I will show more of that as I go along). What you call technical are things like guard passing. If a person can't pass your guard you say they lack technique. I submit that to debate this objectively we are going to need a broader term for technical.
Second; from reading the article I notice that the Tokyo Police dojo; Tokai U, and the Kosen schools were not on the list of places they went to. So again, this is an opinion not based on a full set of facts.
"I have a book that has awesome techniques in it, its Ne Waza of Kashiwazaki. He is one of the best ever in Ne Waza out of Japan. This book is great. I've looked it over and saw many moves that I have learned in Jiu-Jitsu. But I have also seen moves in this book that I would never do for many reasons."
Fair enough; but lets explore those reasons.
"First of all I never pin anyone. Anyone who has seen my Judo fights knows I?ve never won one with a pin. And even in Judo practice I never pin. My coach David Williams even gets on me saying that I can only pin from now on. No armlocks, no chokes, I'm like "You might at well tie my hands to my legs." So the pins in there are worthless unless you are in a Judo match."
Gee; who was the book written for? We are talking about Sport Judo here. One of the major ways to win is to pin. Don't you think it is a little disingenuous to use a book written for Sport Judo matches, to say the pins are worthless unless you are in a sport judo match? ANY pin is worthless unless you are in a sporting game.
"And that also discourages the student to attack from that position as well. They just hold the guy and wait for the 25 second win. There is no incentive to attack because of the possibility of losing the pin."
I disagree. The current coaching view is to get the pin to get the pin clock going, and then to look for a submission as the person is trying to stop the pin clock. True, you wouldn't want to go from Mune Gatame (side mount) to Juji Gatame, as that would stop the clock. But there are many chokes and armlocks you would go for as the clock was ticking. Again, these are all SPORTING decisions, under the rules of the GAME of sport Judo. I agree there would be different SPORTING decisions, under the rules of the GAME of BJJ.
"Another reason is that some of the moves leave arms or legs exposed. Meaning if the guys you are training with knows what he is doing then you are open to his attacks. Which is very dangerous. There are also moves that look hard to pull off because of the angle. I just think there are easier ways to accomplish the same thing."
Again, in the sport of Judo the legs can't be locked so the point is moot. Also I have never read a book or watched a tape where I didn't see things I thought could be done easier or that I would never try. I don't see how that invalidates the entire book or materials in there.
"There are also things that play a role like attributes. Things like speed, strength, flexibility, and endurance. To me, these things have nothing to do with technique."
Again, I disagree. Attributes are the primary criteria as to what techniques are available to you. It may not be so important when you are fighting people who are clueless; but against world-class people the technique thing evens out very quickly and it becomes a battle about who has the best "attributes".
"When I see a huge muscled guy forcing a move and it works I have a hard time thinking that he used his technique to achieve the outcome. I think in Judo strength is a key attribute for success. There is also a high level of technique in Judo but I've never seen a guy at a high level perform well without being strong or in good shape."
Again, different people play the game differently. The idea of being "in shape" is one used across the board in ALL combat sports. Also, again, against world-class people the technique thing evens out very quickly and it becomes a battle about who has the best strength. Judo training methods exposed the world to that in the 60's and we still have people who don't see the truth to it.
"I always tell my students that you must have 3 kinds of a Jiu-Jitsu game. Fast! Slow! And both. Meaning slow at times and fast at times. The slow game is something highly discouraged in Judo. They tell us to be as fast as can be with everything you do. Which is what you need in a Judo Competition."
Again, this is the nature of the beast in Sport Judo. If you aren't moving that referee is going to stand you up.
"But the most impressive thing to me is seeing a Jiu-Jitsu guy barely moving and still
tapping someone silly. As if it took no effort at all. I am just now working and developing my slow game. But I do love training fast."
How much "slow time" do you think there is in a three to five minute match? Again, what is clear to me is that you are using a VERY narrow definition of Judo by using the game of Olympic Judo and the rules by which it is played to make your points.
"Bottom line for those who know both arts: know that they are very different in purpose and application."
The bottom line is that a Judo contest is held under different rules than a BJJ contest. Working under those rules will change the stragity of any player. Still, while the way one would play football in the NFL is different from the XFL, it is still football.
"Also you never hear of Jiu-Jitsu guys claming they are the best at throws, but they do use them. I here a lot of trash talk coming from judo guys that they are this and that on the ground. Even saying that Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are the same. Well they are not."
First; we did hear that ANY GJJ blue belt could defeat ANY Judo black belt. We did hear that ALL martial arts were ineffective in a "real fight" EXCEPT GJJ. We heard that only the "pure water" of GJJ was effective on the ground. Strange how all that "trash talking" seems to be ok; but let a Judo guy point out that BJJ/GJJ is NOT jujutsu and never was; and that there is no such thing as superman, THAT is trash talking. You will understand if I reject the premise.
As far as the "same" issue goes; are the games played the same? No, I never said they were. I do day that Sport Judo and BJJ/GJJ ALL came from the same place (Kodokan Judo) and the core techniques are the same. I welcome debate on that rather than showing how the two GAMES are played differently.
"I feel that after training with guys like Nino that there are no Judo guys that I have ever seen or fought that could come close to them on the ground."
You are entitled to your feelings. MY feelings are that Neil Adams and Kashiwazaki in their prime could hold their own against anyone and that Yamashita in his prime would have defeated anyone with a Gi on. But all of those are OUR feelings, with no way to prove or disprove them.
"I had some problems like you guys might have read about, concerning some Judo guys that have had some harsh words towards my teacher or me. One time I was at Judo practice and a guy who is known for having good Ne Waza was there. He is a very strong and fit guy. He is much bigger than I am. I know, hard to believe huh? We were training together and he was making some mistakes as he tried to pass my guard so I caught him in a few armlocks and every time I would let go of him I would do a roll backwards to roll away and start again. Well he seemed to get angry with me and jumped on my back all furious and aggressive. So I would just get him again. He did this twice. After the second time I got angry and roughed him up. We shared some words. I told him that I was finished with him and to not jump on my back after I tap him. Then the time ran out and I found another partner but this guy refused to let me go saying he wanted to go again. I decided to relax and I left practice saying I didn't want to cause a problem. I think that is a good example of a smaller guy defeating a bigger stronger one with technique."
Interesting story; I have no doubt it is true. I could post a great many about how GJJ people around here have been assholes to my program and me. But to what end? What does it prove other than there are people who act like jerks on both sides of the ball?
?Bottom line for those who know both arts: know that they are very different in purpose and application.?
The bottom line is that a Judo contest is held under different rules than a BJJ contest. Working under those rules will change the stragity of any player. Still, while the way one would play football in the NFL is different from the XFL, it is still football.
?Also you never hear of Jiu-Jitsu guys claming they are the best at throws, but they do use them. I here a lot of trash talk coming from judo guys that they are this and that on the ground. Even saying that Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are the same. Well they are not.?
First; we did hear that ANY GJJ blue belt could defeat ANY Judo black belt. We did hear that ALL martial arts were ineffective in a ?real fight? EXCEPT GJJ. We heard that only the ?pure water? of GJJ was effective on the ground. Strange how all that ?trash talking? seems to be ok; but let a Judo guy point out that BJJ/GJJ is NOT jujutsu and never was; and that there is no such thing as superman, THAT is trash talking. You will understand if I reject the premise.
As far as the ?same? issue goes; are the games played the same? No, I never said they were. I do day that Sport Judo and BJJ/GJJ ALL came from the same place (Kodokan Judo) and the core techniques are the same. I welcome debate on that rather than showing how the two GAMES are played differently.
?I feel that after training with guys like Nino that there are no Judo guys that I have ever seen or fought that could come close to them on the ground.?
You are entitled to your feelings. MY feelings are that Neil Adams and Kashiwazaki in their prime could hold their own against anyone and that Yamashita in his prime would have defeated anyone with a Gi on. But all of those are OUR feelings, with no way to prove or disprove them.
?I had some problems like you guys might have read about, concerning some Judo guys that have had some harsh words towards my teacher or me. One time I was at Judo practice and a guy who is known for having good Ne Waza was there. He is a very strong and fit guy. He is much bigger than I am. I know, hard to believe huh? We were training together and he was making some mistakes as he tried to pass my guard so I caught him in a few armlocks and every time I would let go of him I would do a roll backwards to roll away and start again. Well he seemed to get angry with me and jumped on my back all furious and aggressive. So I would just get him again. He did this twice. After the second time I got angry and roughed him up. We shared some words. I told him that I was finished with him and to not jump on my back after I tap him. Then the time ran out and I found another partner but this guy refused to let me go saying he wanted to go again. I decided to relax and I left practice saying I didn?t want to cause a problem. I think that is a good example of a smaller guy defeating a bigger stronger one with technique.?
Interesting story; I have no doubt it is true. I could post a great many about how GJJ people around here have been assholes to my program and me. But to what end? What does it prove other than there are people who act like jerks on both sides of the ball?
"Sometimes when I train with Judo guys I do have a little trouble finishing. There was a time where this guy wanted to see what my armlocks were like. He was a former Olympian. So when I went to my guard. He did nothing! He just grabbed my belt and held me down. Now he was so strong that I couldn't really move. We are talking about a guy that outweighs me by at the least 50 lbs. He was so strong that I couldn't generate much."
But you just said strength doesn't matter didn't you? Guard passing is NOT part of the game of sport judo. For you to say because he didn't pass your guard he lacks technique is a bit much. He could say YOU had no technique because you didn't throw him or couldn't submit him. Would he be "trash talking" if he did? Are you "trash talking" when you say he lacks technique?
"Of course that guy talked a lot after that. But its ok, I am used to Judo guys talking a lot."
About as much as I am used to GJJ guys talking a lot. Again, how does this comment move anything forward other than to expose your bias here?
"In the Nationals, David and Jimmy went to the ground a couple of times. I think about 4 times. David had him in trouble 2 times, one with an armlock, and Jimmy lifted him off the ground. One time Jimmy tried to pass him guard. David said it seems like he knew what he was doing, but he wasn't too effective. David said he was so low on his legs, that he just put his hands behind his head; David defended his pass with just his legs. That was over a year ago, David is much better now. I don't think David would have too much of a problem."
Who won the match? Again we see that unless someone does things like BJJ/GJJ does them, you think they lack technique. Problem is your definition only applies to the world of BJJ/GJJ. Lifting someone is a good way to stop things in Sport Judo.
"It could have been the same, but like I said, that was a long time ago. Okano and Medhi could have trained the same techniques and that could well be the same that was passed to the Gracies."
If you have any historical proof that Madea, who everyone agrees brought the art to Brazil, was anything other than a Kodokan Judo expert who was sent there to teach Judo; I would be glad to see it.
"But to be honest, it's changed so much and the Gracies did go their own way. The top place for groundwork is Barra Gracie in Rio. They have too many top BJJ guys coming out of there. Nino told me they learn new moves almost all the time. David also told me, when he goes there, he picks up on all the latest moves that they create and its the place to go to get the latest moves. BJJ is different. They are always finding new mat techniques in BJJ all the time."
Like the clock choke? Like the stuff on the advanced BJJ tape from Sperry where the entire standing game is 10 year old Judo from the EJU? Anything is a new technique if you haven't seen it before; but sooner or later you kinda hit the wall. I am more than a little skeptical that every day new stuff is created.
"Yes I have seen some of the same techniques, not all of them. I have some Judo books from Japan, with hundreds of matwork techniques in them, some are good and some I have not seen in BJJ, but most of them have bad habits, leaving an arm exposed, or a knee. I would have to say at one point the matwork was close, but not anymore. "
Again, if the context is Olympic Judo compared with Sport BJJ; then there is NO doubt the games are played differently so the stragities are different. BUT the point made was that the both came from the same art (Kodokan Judo) and that the core techniques are EXACTLY the same. That is the part that people seem to ignore on the "us vs. them" silliness that abounds here.
"So no matter if it was the same way back in the days, it is not anymore! I trained at the top Judo club in Japan, I had just finished High School at the time, and their matwork was good, but only for a Judo player. Nowhere near as good as what I have learned today."
But again, you seemed to have missed a few places in Japan when you were there.
"I think the basics are not there in Judo. I have white belts with better technique. There isn't, and its sad, one active Judo player at my club that knows how to pass the guard properly, without me showing them. And the coaches that are in charge now don?t seem to want my help. There are guys in there that teach me so much about Judo; I just want to return the favor to my teammates. "
Jesus can you guys EVER get over the guard thing? The ONLY place that matters is in a BJJ/GJJ SPORTING MATCH! It does NOTHING in the sport of Judo and it will get you KILLED if you use it in a true real fight! You guys would be all over me if I said until you could throw EVERYONE with Uchimata then you suck. But this guard-passing thing is just ridiculous!
"I was discussing this to the coach and he said that one of my students wouldn't be able to beat a strong judo guy with good basics. Well Ralph has a blue belt in San Francisco that could beat everyone there on the ground no problem. I think it's hard for a Judo coach to believe. He would also get thrown by everyone there but so what, that's just where he isn't proficient. "
BINGO! Here is where the truth comes out! Read the above again. So it's ok for Ralph to be unable to beat these guys at sport judo because "that's just where he isn?t proficient" but you expect the Judo people to excel at BJJ/GJJ? If it is a "so what" when Ralph is going to get slammed by all the Judo guys; WHY isn't it a "so what" when the Judo guys can't pass your guard, or you submit them? Doesn't that "so what" go BOTH ways?
"All this started when I was attacked verbally by Judo players who thought they were the only grapplers. And this is my response. Why doesn?t someone when they see something better come along open their eyes to it and change? I don?t get it."
You really want to try and sell that the Judo guys had the bad attitude? Again it kinda ignores what they were told by Rorion in his wonderful marketing of his GJJ program. The ONLY people I have EVER met who thought they were the only grapplers are the ones talking about "pure water". Those are NOT Judo people.
"It's the rules that give the Judo player the wrong strategy. I mean really, what is the point of holding someone down for 25 seconds? It's just not what I am used to."
Wrong for what, exactly? Do you complain about the pin in wrestling? Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, GJJ, Sambo, are all games. You win those games by playing by those rules.
"Well in Europe that isn't the case. I think that is why I was so successful in Italy. It was my first trip to Europe and I took the bronze in an A level tournament. You see in Europe they like Ne Waza. I saw more that these guys were aggressive towards me when the match went to the ground."
I seem to recall making that point from day one around here. That you cannot use USA Judo as an example of what I am speaking about.
"My matches in Italy were fast. I was using a wide range of Tachi Waza and Ne Waza along with moves I've never seen anyone else do in tournaments like the flying armlock."
Ummm...lots of Russians have used the flying armlock a few Japanese players too. The problem now is that it is subject to Ref discretion if it is legal or not.
"I don't mean to sound like I am trying to blow my own horn but it just frustrates me that I never received the proper acknowledgement in the magazines like Real Judo, which is the magazine that everyone reads for information on U.S. Judo. People even make jokes that it should be called the Jason Morris and Jimmy Pedro magazine because that's all you hear about. They would rather talk about the Olympic team and how they are doing. It should report on all upcoming Judo athletes. I mean its not like we get any funding. And I know I am the only one who says what's on my mind about it all. I hear these things all the time but it's always a whisper."
Again, what else is new? Talk to Gene LeBell sometime about how well they treated him. Other than here, no one in Judo listens to me. I speak my mind and I don't whisper either. But I am pretty much labeled because of it, but the "sour grapes" thing is kinda clear here.
"The main things that come to mind. I was never taught how to escape the armlock properly. NEVER. You will see even names like Jimmy Pedro do it incorrectly. Which he did when he fought David. David puts him in an armlock and he lifts instead of stacks. But this is because of the rules. The rules are, if you lift your opponent off the ground, they will stop the match."
There you go again. It is perfect to lift in Judo BECAUSE of the rules. It stops the match and the clock right then. So, clearly for sport judo, that is proper. What other way should one use in Sport Judo? If you try the stack you might not have enough time to clear and pass; so all you have done is wasted time on the clock. That is ok if you are ahead but no so if you are behind. Again, why deride him for playing the game by the rules?
"In judo they have taught me how to defend the choke, and how to defend the armlock, but never how to escape these moves. I now know how to escape if someone gets my back, a choke, an armlock, and some escapes help you attack while escaping."
You don't try and escape those things in Sport Judo because there is NO SCORE for getting them in Sport Judo. You are taught to escape pins because THAT will get a score. If the clock isn't running there is NO REASON to give your opponent a chance to get it running. Again, context is Sport Judo. Is there another context I am missing?
"How many Judo guys know how to apply a reverse triangle? Maybe 5% if that. David caught the #1 guy in his weight in 40 seconds with a reverse triangle at the Nationals."
Bravo; how many BJJ/GJJ guys have a record like Yamashita or can throw like him? We can do this kind of thing all night but what does it have to do with anything?
"A Judo guy will give his back at will."
Yep; and learning how to turn the turtle is part of the game. I would think you would be thrilled they do that. Makes it easy for you to win.
"Or how about proper arm placement while in a side control pin? I was never taught that in Judo."
Really? Which one? Yoko Shiho Gatame is not used in BJJ/GJJ as the triangle is right there and you will have the time to get it because the pin doesn't score. However in Judo that position is scoring and in 25 seconds you will have a hard time getting the triangle. However Mune Gatame looks like a side mount and avoids the problem. I understand the arm is on the outside and as such doesn't prevent the turn into the guard. But again that 25-second thing changes the game.
"Or even doing a Kesa-Gatame pin in Judo it is good, in Jiu-Jitsu, with the jiu-jitsu rules, I will get out of that pin and have your back."
Except that we are talking about it's use in Sport Judo. As such it is the #1 winning pin. With a 25 second time limit; that escape doesn't work so well. In fact I have seen many BJJ/GJJ people lose judo matches to that pin because you don't have the time to get out the back door.
"A lot of the Judo throws are also bad to do in jiu-jitsu, making you end up with your back to your opponent, or even an arm exposed. One throw in particular, it's almost like a seoi (over-the-back throw), but you put your arm over your opponents and then continue to roll using your weight and momentum. I love this throw being used on me, I will allow them to throw me just so I can end up with their arm, in an armlock."
Except that in Judo the match is over before then. Also in that much used "real fight", I think that smash to the cement with me on top of you is going to end the fight right there. Koga killed with that move, and so have many others.
"Judo is a sport not a fighting art. The training is totally different. But there are some really tough guys in Judo. Remember Judo guys are strong, in shape athletes. They have to be because of the demands in the sport!"
Then BJJ/GJJ is NOT a fighting art either. If all you are going to use for your point is Olympic Judo, then all I am going to use is what I see at the BJJ/GJJ Gi matches. NEITHER is a fighting art; they are both combat sports. Games played with rules and refs.
In closing; this is an interesting article; but clearly the idea here is to show how ineffective Sport Judo is in BJJ/GJJ matches. Gee, lots of wasted space on something we agree on. Just as much as BJJ/GJJ is very ineffective in Sport Judo matches. So I guess again I fail to see the point.
MY POINTS from day one about BJJ/GJJ have been:
1. BJJ/GJJ is NOT jujutsu and never was. Its history is that it came from Kodokan Judo.
2. That the manner of training is exactly the way Kano and the Kodokan trained for Judo.
3. That its core techniques are exactly as those in Kodokan Judo.
The fact that the sports are different; that they have different rules, that winning in them requires a different set of stragities; etc, ALL that goes without saying.
But NO ONE here is talking about "better than", "superior", "pure water", "undefeated", or other like-minded "us against him or her" concepts. We are talking about understanding our common bond of parentage so that we can come closer together not move further apart.
If someone wants to debate MY three points, then lets do so. But I am not going to spend any more time on the silly stuff any longer. This is nine pages and two hours of my time to go over the same old thing again.
I'd really like to get past this.
Now, in closing...
1. I do NOT go to BJJ/GJJ boards and dog them. I am tired of people coming in here to dog me.
2. I will delete EVERY post that gets into this again. I will also delete any post that doesn't address the core issue of why are people coming in here to dis judo.
3. This is the big one so try and get it...
IF YOU DON'T WANT MY APPLES THEN DON'T SHAKE MY TREE!
Judo Guy,
The part missed is that NO ONE in here says BJJ/GJJ sucks, has no technique, doesn't work, etc and et al. I make this point plain in my rebuttal. THEY are the ones attacking Judo, and as such I take offense at it.
To me, the reasons for that interview and its motivations are very clear. That is all I am going to say on that matter. Sadly the interview is not going to go away, and every month or so someone brings it up in here. As such, no one should be upset or suprized that I not only disagree but will refute the central points.
macdawg,
I agree with you. However if you read the interview the term "technique" there ONLY applies if you can do something in the style and manner as taught in BJJ/GJJ. I still say that is a rather narrow minded viewpoint of a very large subject.
Coach,
Please don't waste brain cells on the Camarillo's.
Thank you
Jarvis
Coach i agree with all your major points. Although i was on the topic before i just want to reinterate some points. It seems to me, that the bros are talking more about the average rather than the exception when it comes to Judo schools (on topics like groundwork), based on their experience. they just went overboard.also, you wrote:
"Don't you think it is a little disingenuous to use a book written for Sport Judo matches, to say the pins are worthless unless you are in a sport judo match? ANY pin is worthless unless you are in a sporting game."
Actually i believe that there are circumstances in real life (non-sporting environments) where pins are useful. ie. unruly uncle where you have to break up a scuffle on the ground without hurting anyone, bouncers subduing patrons, at some points for some arrests, police have to pin before they cuff and etc.
Mark,
I've disagree with you on alot of things in the past. But I must say you did a pretty good job stating your case. Very convincing!!! It is good that you did this. I woudl recommend archive this.
I do want to make one point that Bolo stated and that I stated in the past, Dan and Daves' interview reflects their opinion based on their experiences. When I question Dan as to if he ever visited George Medhi's dojo while in Rio or the Keicho (the Police Dojo) or even Isao Okano's dojo he replied he didn't. I wonder if his opinion would change if he visits the places in the near future. Obviously someone who has visited at least two out of those three places I mentioned and his trained with many high rank Bjj guys has a totally different opinion then Dan and Daves. I would encourage those who take Dan and Dave's opinions to heart also consider Joe Moreira's view too.
I have archived this...
Okano Sensei was Pat Buris's Judo coach as well.
I think that interview came off really bad. Everytime I read it, I think they are mad at the judo community for some reason. Their dad has been involved in judo for years and they grew up with the sport. They are originally from So Cal, so I want to root for David to do well. But I can't in good conscious root for him because of what I perceive to be some hostility towards the judo community.
Funny thing is, they have done much better in BJJ competition than they have in judo competition. I think David placed 3rd in the World in his division. One would think they would praise the sport of judo for improving their BJJ game. What feint praise they give the sport in the interview seems calculated to appear impartial.
I really don't take issue with them recounting their experiences training judo and bjj. What else are they to speak about? True, they might not have trained at the Tokyo Police Dojo, Okano's, Mehdi's etc., but that can be said about nearly anyone who takes the opposite opinion. Not only that, how many judoka have worked out at Gracie Barra or whatever the big BJJ academy is? What is the average judoka's reference point for the training at the previously stated dojos being as good as the BJJ training? We can probably count on one hand the number of people with the requisite experience expected by this board to cite an opinion if the criteria demanded of the Camarillo's were expected by the parties arguing against them.
If the Camarillo brothers enjoy BJJ more than judo, think its a better system etc. I don't have a problem with that. Its just an opinion. However wrong I might think it is.
Just seems like there was a better way to say it. The way they stated their opinion does leave them open to criticism of that opinion being biased.
"First, we have to agree on a definition of "technical". It is clear that this is not really an objective article (I will show more of that as I go along). What you call technical are things like guard passing. If a person can't pass your guard you say they lack technique. I submit that to debate this objectively we are going to need a broader term for technical."
technical means EFFICIENTLY using energy to execute a technique. This is how most martial artists would define technical IMO.
Judo example would be easiest way to break kazushi and execute a throw, in a manner that doesn't make you "grunt", I think combining different throwing techniques in a sequence until you get the throw is very technical.
BJJ example, BJJ example, an elevator sweep while opponent is totally off balance, transitioning to side mount, and having grip set for a collar choke that has your opponent tapping without even squeezing just by having hands placed proper, and expansion of elbows and dropping of bodyweight, while all along doing it so effortlessly it seems like their is no resistance.
JMO
I think the Camarillos are badasses...They have their oppinions and I have mine.I disagree with their assertions on what Judo is but I respect the hell out of them because unlike alot of people who talk shit.....they continue to walk out on-to the mat.....