IronMonkey: Judo/Wrestle SanShou?

Underground
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No worries. I generally tend to stay out of internet arguments. I find them childish. But, this time I slipped a bit because what was being posted was so clearly untrue. I don't regret posting what I did but, it is better off deleted. Thanks for the good job you are doing as moderator. All the forums should be so well policed.

IronMonkey - I got your e-mail and will write back ASAP. Good questions.  I can post my answers as well if you like.

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Wow, thanks Pisand for the trouble. Much appreciated.

Sambosteve - I don't mind if you post the answers to my questions. If others can benefit from the knowledge that's great.

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No problem at all, IronMonkey.

Thanks for the kind words, SamboSteve.

 

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LMFAO... I guess my prediction was true, ie that once I left town shit would fly, oh well....

Iron Monkey, sorry for the problems regarding my DVD, but you'd have to talk to Customflix, just call them diretly I guess??

HOnestly, I don't believe in or follow the holier than thou mystical crap, sorry if that disappoints you. I am a coach of a fighting art, ie I teach fighting techniques and coach fighters. I have an excelent track record doing it. THat's all that should matter in my opinion, other opinions vary

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Question from IronMonkey's e-mail...
 
"Can you elaborate more on strike throw combos? What strikes do you find useful for throws? Can you recommend some strike throw combos?"
 
Well, one of my favorites is the overhand to underhook grip and throw. We work this a lot. Jab - overhand. However, when striking for throws, you must close the distance so rather than return the jab to you, you step in and close the distance (thus returning the jab) and overhand down and inside his guard (I mean a boxer's guard here).  After the strike hits his face (usually ear, temple, manibular area) continue the strike down and into his guard for an underhook the armpit with that same arm.  Also, be sure to cover with your jab hand so you don't eat a cross or hook when entering.  After you get the underhook, go for an over hook of the other arm with the jab hand (getting the over and under clinch). Take him down from there...my favorite is the pancake but, any good upper body clinch throw will do. Key here is not to wait in the clinch. OInce you have it, throw him. Also, this is easier with MMA gloves than boxing gloves like san da but, if the guy keeps an open guard like many MT folks, it should be OK. It is harder when the guy keeps an conventional tight boxing guard.
 
Another good one is from once you establish your clinch. Work your inside uppercut to the face but, don't stop there. Keep the motion of the strike moving upward and around his neck for an arm/head grip hip throw.
 
Lastly (and this may not be good for san da because you hit the ground first), when you have a guy against the rope, cliched, and you are kneeing him, throw a few knes and bait him by allowing him to grab your knee, keep the clinch tight and execute a sacrifice throw.
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Sambo Steve is a good martial artist, not just a "sambo guy" and his advice and technique is sound. HIs sacrifice techniques will also indeed work in san da......

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SamboSteve wrote:


"if the guy keeps an open guard like many MT folks, it should be OK"


What about the MT guard do you think makes it easier to execute the throw?


Thanks!

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Thanks David. I was not sure what the San Da rule is for when the thrower hits the ground first.

Pisand -  I don't mean that MT guys are generally easier to throw. In this specific case I mean that many MT fighters keep their hands at more of a distance from their head and elbows a bit m ore outward as opposed to many western style boxers who keep their hands closer to their head and elbows tight.  The more space between your opponants hands and head means there is more space to get your glove inside with the overhand and get the clinch.

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Thanks for the response. Just was curious if the MT guard left holes for a throw...so if competing in a San Da rules fight, this is good to know ;)

 

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Steve, rules have changed, or rather, we have better referees now... in old days a lot of sacrifice techniques were not scored correctly, heck, even good solid takedowns were not scored correctly.. I"m sure you remember David Grodsky hitting perfect double legs and taking guys down and losing points!

We did a LOT to get better quality and to recognize legit techniques, ie the Chinese ref's would let you sweep all day, even bad ones that misably failed, but if it was "Chinese" then it was ok.

I"m glad those days are behind us with King of San Da USA....

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Train Thai and work the clinch heavy. There is a reason why they say Cung Le will not fight any Muay Thai fighters. That's not to take away from him, because he is good and I like to watch him fight..... but if him and Pajunsuk weighed the same..... it would be trouble.

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Hey guys, can we please keep this thread on track this time? Let's not ruin another one of IronMonkey's threads.

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Lkfmdc - I did give them a call after two unaswered emails and was told that an email wll be sent to explain what will be happenning. I am still waiting for an email. I guess this is the risk you gota take when you order goods from overseas.

I thought sacrifice throws are not scored in sanda. Actually I thought that sacrifice throws will be scored in favour of the person that is throwed because he will touch the ground first. If this is not the case in King of Sanda USA, have the rules in China changed as well?

Sambosteve - great post, thanks. I'm going to give those a try. What throw is the pancake though? Are there any throws that can transition from kicks?

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Iron Monkey, I have some copies here that I'd be willing to send you out of my pocket if you are willing to send me the postage, if you were in US I'd say forget it, but the postage out of the US is crazy, sorry. If you want to send me postage, send it to me by PAY PAL to LKFMDC@att.net

RE rules, in China, the rules say basicly, no matter what, China wins :)

In reality, the rules were always about CONTROL so if you do a sacrifice technique correctly, you keep and end up in control... like I said, we have much better ref's in KSD USA now...

Grin Socker,

First of all, Cung Le has fought TONS of Muay Thai guys. Don't make this another tired and worn out SD vs MT thread....

I have full respect for MT, but the reality is, it is a game without throws. For this reason, they train differently and are easily thrown. Old SS fighters used to play without knees and would get killed by knees

A classic example was Josh Beauregard vs Dimitry Shirganov. Shirganov is a FANTASTIC MT fighter, but was easily handled by Josh because of the THROWS. He was very easy to throw because his base was not there. If it was pure striking, it would have been a different match, but rules do dictate a lot

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"What about the MT guard do you think makes it easier to execute the throw?"

MT fighters typically stand tall for lighter legs and in the clinch they also stand tall and tight to smother knees.

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Yep, I agree. A 50/50 more upright stance, versus a deeper, traditional MA stance allows a very natural flow for all the techniques, but does make you susceptible with regard to certain throws not inherent to MT.

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The challenge for San Da athletes is to mix the upright stance associated with MT for their striking with a lower stance more appropriate for wrestling, thus, is is the classic TCMA issue, ie sensitivity and feeling your opponent's intention...

Fighting is a conversation, you have to listen to what the other guy is saying

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"What throw is the pancake though? Are there any throws that can transition from kicks?"

Pancake is hard to describe...LOL.  It is a trip from an over/under grip.  Drop your weight straight down to the floor.  Do not sit back, drop straight down.  Your leg should straighten out (on the same side that you have the overhook grip) to trip your opponant as you turn him toward the tripping leg.  When you drop, you pull him down with you. Don't loosen your grip or he will stay standing. The dropping and simultaneous turning of your body (and the gripped arms of your opponant) force him to fall.  You end up in a scarf generally.

I assume you mean that you are the kicker...Other than a variety of scissor takedowns, you can also do a rolling knee bar (from an inside leg scissor position - without the submission for san da), several types of trips and some foot sweeps too. It is all about where you position your kick; whether the kick was evaded, caught, or not; and whether you were kicking high, low, to the inside or outside of you opponant's leg.

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a pankake is a tasty breakfast food, best served with a nice syrup....

uh, wait, no, in this case, it's what Steve just said :)

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Wait till I share my Waffle technique