Oh that wasn’t Serra’s critique? What was it then?
LOL Sure.
Serra’s critique was that it’s both easy and unfair for Laimon to sit on the sidelines and criticize Royce’s performance against Hughes when he’s unwilling to put his BJJ to the test in MMA himself.
To assist in putting the whole thing into context:
- Acting like a loss to the second greatest WW of all time is somehow a pathetic showing is just silly. Hughes would have given Laimon the same beating he gave Royce, only Laimon wouldn’t have had the excuse of age to fall back on. Does that mean Laimon has blue belt level BJJ?
- Royce was never known as a sport BJJ guy; his BJJ was always considered in the context of MMA, and in that regard, his BJJ was pretty dang good. Laimon likes to act like the fighters of Royce’s era were easy pushovers, but he wouldn’t be willing to fight most of Royce’s opponents in MMA–nor would he have beaten them.
- Previous bad blood between Laimon and the Gracie family just makes the whole thing seem in bad taste.
It had nothing to do with someone having to fight MMA to be a good coach or trainer.
I think that’s fair, Matt took exception to a certain quote of Laimon that Royce should have never of fought against Matt. I hadn’t watched that season in a long time, so I just looked at a clip now and Serra definitely won that argument. My issue is that people have now taken that quote and expanded on it without that context and have dunked on Laimon ever since that came out without knowing the history.
I don’t know Laimon, I never trained with him, but I just hate when things online become somewhat of a pile on which often happens.
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I thought it was a low class remark then and that hasn’t changed. Anyone who questions Royce’s toughness is ridiculous, especially when you are doing it to a Gracie bb and (then future) world MMA champion. If you don’t have the balls to fight, your opinion is somewhat invalid. Royce did it, in tournaments, against some of the very biggest and baddest dudes in the world with no rules and came out on top. Talk is cheap.
The clip is short but I don’t think that’s what Marc’s critique was? It was about Royce’s skill level not his toughness. Which after evaluating the quote it is offensive on it’s own tbh.
Hughes would make the majority of BJJ black belts look bad after he’s smashed them in the face and slammed them to the ground in MMA. Add in Royce was 40 years old in a sport where even legends like Penn are washed up in their early 30’s.
I’m not gonna defend Marc’s statement, it was stupid. I looked at the quote he was saying Royce was basically a high level blue belt or Purple belt which is ridiculous. If you think a blue belt or purple belt could hang in MMA for an hr with Saku where Saku had the advantage in striking you’re insane. Saku was asked about those matches and made a distinct difference between Ryan’s skill level to Royce and Renzo’s, he didn’t mention a distinct dif between Royce and Renzo.
The one thing that has really stood out to me about the high end wrestlers that transitioned over to mma was what Pedro Sauer said about Mark Schultz
- after 3 months Schultz was submitting my nest black belts.
Old school wrestlers and Jiu Jitsu guys are literally cut from the same clothe
They are cousins that like to fight each other
Neither side ever thought that they could make a great living within the sport - they did it for pride love and ego
I fucking love the old school mentality
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People forget that for the first couple of rounds of Sakuraba vs. Royce, Royce was winning. I highly doubt that Laimon could pull that off. Royce wasn’t the best, but he was a tough, tough, dude.
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Royce WAS the best
People caught up to him
Well, that would be a long winded conversation that I won’t bore everyone with. However, I will say that MMA had been going on for approximately 7-8 years before UFC 1 in Japan, where many of the Shooto guys were considerably more well rounded. That doesn’t mean that they would have beat Royce in a vale tudo fight, but there were some game fighters in that era that may very well could have. Erik Paulson, Manabu Yamada, and a few others come to mind.
It’s all hypothetical, and I’ve already said too much, but needless to say, America was rather late to the party.
I wish my wife talked to me like this… just sayin
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Also, everyone has good and bad matchups. Gracie’s main problem against Hughes was that he isn’t at all athletic. Dennis Hallman isn’t in the same league that Royce is in terms of BJJ, but he easily submitted Matt twice. Carlos Newton put Matt to sleep with a triangle before getting knocked out with that desperation slam. The point is that those two are athletic, while Royce wasn’t.
Also, Royce benefited a lot from a gi where he could slow things down and work his game.
I would like to counter this
Where does your respect for Matt Hume as a teacher rate?
Dennis Hallman has photographic memory when it comes to learning BJJ
Matt Hume never criticized him once when it came to practicing different movements
Aaron Riley and Jeff Monson both went on record stating that they have never met anyone that was able to absorb bjj like Dennis Hallman
I respect Royce, but I wouldn’t say that Hallman was to far off of the skill set that Hallman brings to the table
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Ok. Even if Hallman is Royce’s equal in BJJ, the big difference here is athleticism. Hallman had it, Royce did not. As far as their skill levels, I’m not qualified to get too far in the weeds comparing them, but it’s safe to say that there are aspects of BJJ that Rocye is going to be a lot better in. For example, the guard, using the gi, etc. That’s not to say that there wasn’t a point where Hallman may not have beaten Royce in a grappling match, age and athleticism count for a lot.
I will say, also, that there is a difference between having a strong aptitude to learn something, and even being good at it, and practicing it all day, every day, for your entire life.
I bet Matt Serra hates this place.
When I trained at Serras Matt was an avid reader here not sure if still is i asked hin to postcl but he lurked
Mbetz
You are one of the many reasons that makes this place special
I can totally appreciate this view. While I think Laimon’s comments were both petty and inaccurate, my primary issues with him come from his conduct at grappling tournaments.
Another way of looking at it: how would the average club hobbyist black belt today do in an MMA fight against the likes of Shamrock, Kimo, Patrick Smith, Remco, Severn or Gordeau, since everyone’s so much more advanced now? These are all big, strong, skilled guys who showed up to an unknown fighting event with the expectation of violence and multiple fights, and in their prime would have given fits to a lot of the best BJJ guys today. And Royce did more than survive against them, he subbed them all.
Haha I remember the original thread!
I miss those days so freaking much.
Matt would love me if he knew me. We could bond over pasta.
Pro members get 50% more ass!
