ISCF Helps Make MMA Legal

Underground
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Damn Yankee: Just for clarification (because I honestly don't know), when you say that:

"We have four or five promoters putting on shows here, several times a year. If Georgia is so hostile to promoters, why do we have possibly the most active fight scene in the country?"

Could you break down the 4 or 5 into GA promoters and outside promoters? Or, could you break down the numbers of shows held in GA last year that were put on by GA promoters VS outside promoters?

I really don't know and I think it would be an interesting fact.

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"An outside promoter being forced to go through local promoters to have an event sanctioned is wrong IMHO"

I agree 100% and that is one of the changes being made.

"The ISCF/IKF didn't invent MMA and they weren't a part of MMA for many years. Why should they now be the 'ONLY' sanctioning body for it?"

Then the question could be asked, "Why should boxing or athletic commissions be the 'ONLY' sanctioning body in any given state when they have never had anything to do with it, either?
The ISCF was responsible for keeping MMA legal in GA. No one else stepped up to the plate and fought for it.
Any organization that has full reign in any state is not really a problem... As long as safety guidelines and standards of business are met. The problem that ISCF had was having a few promoters in charge of approving other promoters. Even if it never was a problem, it was always there to be viewed as a problem and in turn, it is being changed.
The whole " they are a full governmental body, responsible to the people of the state" is total BS. Why do we want people in position of responsibility of the sport who are willing to let professed felons promote? Why would you put the safety of 20 fighters and 2000 fans in the hands of a person who doesn't even care about their own well being? State organizations have no problem doing these kinds of things so we can dispense with all the "the state orgs are there to serve the best interests of the people" bullshit. We are all aware of the corruption that surrounds boxing and the athletic commissions that are in charge of it. That's an insult to mine and everyone else's intelligence.

"These state commissions have a history of allowing multiple organizations operate within their jurisdictions"

Not other sanctioning bodies. They have a history of letting other promotional companies operate within their districts. So does the ISCF. The ISCF actually FOUGHT FOR THE UFC when it came here. That was what initiated the boxing commission to want to outlaw MMA in GA. We have had DangerZone come to GA under the ISCF. We have had WEFC come to GA under the ISCF. KOTC was in negotiations to come here not long ago and still may and I know for a fact that the AFC from FL are currently in negotiations to do shows in GA, all under the ISCF. The ISCF is not about keeping other orgs out of GA. They are about keeping the sport in GA out of the hands of questionable or criminal elements. If someone has been kept from promoting MMA in GA you can bet your bottom dollar they were either guilty of criminal charges, guilty of questionable behavior in the past concerning promotional duties/business practices or directly involved with someone who met the above criteria. I don't want to start naming names here and pointing fingers because it's rather obvious.

"Also I keep reading that "we are the only sanctioning body that isn't a promotional body". One could say that the biggest event the IKF does every year is it's own show - The IKF North American Amateur Tournament."

It's always done by an independent promoter, as well as the regionals. Different promoters put on these tournaments each year. Sometimes they may be done by the same promoter 2 or 3 times in a row but it is never set in stone which promoter will handle the events.

"On the other hand - WOW. The IKF tournament is far and away one of the best run events in the country. I have been to many grappling tournaments, many fighting shows, and almost all of them could learn something from the IKF when it comes to event organizing. They also have a genuine concern for the athletes that compete. And that runs all the way to the top."

And there you go... that's the bottom line, isn't it? Because a couple of shady and questionable people were denied the right to promote MMA, for reasons which were plainly stated, it should be evident that the IKF/ISCF are concerned mainly with putting on good organized events and looking out for the best interests of the fighters and the rest involved.

"I'd like to just respectfully disagree with you on them."

So what is it you disagree with me about? We agree that promoters should not be put in charge of approval of other promoters. That seems to be the only problem that arises when talking about opposition to ISCF. So am I to assume that you agree that felons should be able to promote? Should promoters with a history of fraud, theft and not paying fighters be allowed to promote? Should people admittedly and openly associating with said people on a business level be allowed to promote?

Here's the bottom line, and even you agree with this...
Since the ISCF fought successfully to keep MMA legal in GA 5 years ago our MMA scene has become arguably the most active in the country. The shows are well run and operate almost flawlessly. Our officials are knowledgable, highly skilled and experienced. The fighters are kept safe and are always paid on time. Our guidelines and standards are noble and dedicated to preserving the integrity and well being of the sport that we almost lost because the athletic commission wanted to make it illegal. Yeah, we admit that we kept a few criminals and thieves from promoting in GA. Anyone who has a problem with that standard needs to question their own motives and integrity...

Peace-
Cam

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"It's always done by an independent promoter,"

The IKF North American tournament is? You would be the one to know, but are you sure? I've been to 3 and heavily involved with 2 of them. I never saw any outside promoter. Everything was done by the IKF and everything was in the IKF's name.

Also, I keep seeing referrals to the keeping of criminals out of Georgia. I was part of the application with Frank. It was our company and our application. Are you referring to me when you say that? Are you referring to Frank? Sure sounds like it.

"Should people admittedly and openly associating with said people on a business level be allowed to promote?"

I was told that if I was 'associating' with Jamie Levine then I would not be able to have a show. I was told that even if I was seen eating lunch with him then to forget it. I still had business dealing with Jamie over the video rights to his shows, and he is my friend as well so I thought that was unfair. The people that had held me in high integrity and thought nothing of my association with Jamie Levine when I was broadcasting shows for the IKF/ISCF, encoding videos and doing live radio broadcasts for them, helping with web stuff, etc. etc. suddenly found that same association unacceptable when I wanted to promote a show in one of their states.

Cam, bottom line is - I think there should be several sanctioning bodies. In my experience the IKF approaches Athletic Commissions with a 'IKF/ISCF' ONLY stance. Obviously they shouldn't need to suggest other organizations, but they do make an extended effort to attempt sole sanctioning in a state.

Several organizations sanction kickboxing and they do it alongside the State Athletic Commissions and they do it abiding by a pretty much standard set of rules. That's the direction I think MMA should also take. There is always one organization that seems to rise to the top of sanctioning bodies in any given sport, and let the ISCF do that, but let them do it alongside other bodies. It's a system of checks and balances that will only help to further the sport and protect the athletes and promoters. I don't think there should be a whole bunch, but I'd like to see 2 or maybe 3 solid organizations arise in the US. I would also like to eventually see the champions in each of those organizations fight for unified belts on occasion. Seeing the ISCF champion always fight the ISCF contender doesn't do as much for the sport IMHO.

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Orion/Cam,
we are just going to disagree on having a civilian organization in a quasi-governmental role. Within a governmental setting, policies/regulations may be changed without deleting whole sections of a state's code/laws. It is just plain bad policy. There is BS/corruption in politics.....any kind of politics, and no organization is immune. I am certainly not trying to insult anyone's intelligence. Since the ISCF is so good, it can handle competition.

Johnny, no, I don't write for an organization, BUT I AM OPEN FOR OPPORTUNITIES........!!

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Johnny, we had spoken about the "miscommunications" in yours & Frank's attempt to promote in GA.  In the end, Jamie Levine was one of your main events in the show which you moved up north. And there wound up being many "questions" about the bout... It's not like you were just associating with him or were pals.  He wound up having a role in your promotion... 

Call it what you like, the ISCF has been successful in keeping the sport LEGAL, SAFE & CLEAN here in GA.  The boxing commission here has made numerous attempts to outlaw and then control our sport.  The commissioner has spread unsubstantiated runors throughout the legislature and has been outrightly hostile towards the MMA community during events co-promoted with boxing.  No one I have spoken with has any problem with other recognized sanctioning bodies.  What we do have a problem with is a) as Cam mentioned, "criminal" elements being involved; and b) the sanctioning bodies being overseen by an individual who has shown an agenda which includes outward distain towards ISCF.

I have been involved with MMA longer than most (since 1994).  I didn't ask for the position I was appointed to.  Bottom line is no one else really wanted the responsibility.  Now that certain elements have chosen to challenge things, both myself and Matt Waller are only too happy to give way to a new system.  Nothing is perfect; however, ISCF continues to show that as an organization they are willing to compromise and evolve as an entity.  Try and get that out of any legislated state run organization...

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"Also, I keep seeing referrals to the keeping of criminals out of Georgia. I was part of the application with Frank. It was our company and our application. Are you referring to me when you say that? Are you referring to Frank? Sure sounds like it."

No, not in any way. I don't know Frank and like I said, I have always liked you so I would never accuse you of anything like that, especially on a public forum. I also like Jamie but you have to admit he has a well known history of bad business. You were openly associated with him at the time and that was the blemish that kept you from getting sanctioning. And to justify that, there was a show done in FL after the AC took over that was "promoted" by an outside guy but was still "associated" with Jamie. Popular belief was that Jamie was the promoter and that the other guy was simply a figurehead and that Jamie was handling all the calls from behind the lines. Anyway, when it was all over the promotion had found a way to circumvent paying the fighters. Not sure if they ever got payed or not but it should not have happened at all. That was evidence that even with Jamie "slightly" associated with the promotion, questionable things could arise... I think Jamie fought on that card. I have no idea if he had anything at all to do with the promotion or if all the speculation is correct but you have to admit that if something goes awry like that at a promotion and Jamie is in any way associated people will notice that fact and draw conclusions.

" Orion/Cam, we are just going to disagree on having a civilian organization in a quasi-governmental role."

I'm cool with that. I do know that commissions are not about serving the people or the sport. They are simply about $$$$$$. There was a new proposed bill that had the AC in charge here in GA but let other sanctioning orgs come in under them. All the sanctioning orgs were to use their own rules, their own officials and their own guidelines and basically police themselves but they had to pay the AC to be able to do so. The AC was going to be doing absolutely nothing in the way of organization, sanctioning or anything related other than accepting and cashing checks.

Peace-
Cam

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ttt

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I wish nothing but the best for the ISCF, and I am very interested in seeing what changes are implemented and what the future holds. I am concerned about the attempts at getting sole sanctioning in other states, but I will be attending a lot more of those meetings in the future representing Shooto, so I'll present my case for other sanctioning bodies then.


Regardless, it's nice to know that people can come on here and intelligently debate things without resorting to trash talking! I think that you guys represent both the IKF/ISCF organizations and MMA in general very well and I look forward to seeing you at more of their events.

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"I am concerned about the attempts at getting sole sanctioning in other states,"

I don't think that's what is happening. It's more along the lines of states that have no sanctioning at all where the sport is illegal or where the sport is in danger of being made illegal due to questionable happenings in the past because of no sanctioning. ISCF is trying to prevent that by offering sanctioning and presenting themselves and their track record of keeping the sport clean and legitimate in other states. It's instances where the alternative is no MMA at all. It's not like the ISCF is calling up legislators in all the states and saying, "Please make us the sole MMA sanctioning body in your state!!".

The first step is to keep the sport legal in the states in question. Then to prove that good sanctioning can be responsible for cleaning up the sport and legitimizing it. Then the doors can open up. It has to start somewhere...

Peace-
Cam

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ttt

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The ISCF is certainly not a non promoting and neutral sanctioning body. The only GA promoters of MMA are ISCF board members. The ISCF claims they don’t deny promoters. They do however ignore promoter applications and call it a miscommunication or deny the date of the event for various b.s. reasons. One promoter was told he could not have an MMA date in GA because there was a kickboxing event in Iowa too close to that date. Unbiased?

Most disturbing of all is that the ISCF vindictively attacks anyone that opening disagrees with them. They are definitely not acting in the best interest of MMA, yet they claim some kind of ownership of it.

Bottom line get other sanctioning bodies in GA give people a choice then the competition and free market will make us all better for it.

Kevin Gittemeier
Pro MMA fighter GA

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Cam, can you tell us how many non-GA promoters put on an event in that state with ISCF sanctioning in 2004 VS GA promoters? This is very important info.

"It's not like the ISCF is calling up legislators in all the states and saying, "Please make us the sole MMA sanctioning body in your state!!".

Not in all the states, but in several states they have in fact done that. I'll send you a private email and we'll talk about it more...

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Personally, I find it a bit bizarre that MMA is regulated by an organization that is not a governmental agency. I understand the historical background of how this came to be, as explained by the ISCF, but it still seems odd to entrust that function to an entity that is apparently not subject to the normal administrative regulatory process, particularly with respect to due process pertaining to applications for licensure of persons and events. If there are, in fact, established regulatory processes in place, what are they? For example, if a promoter is denied the right to act as a promoter in the state or to promote a particular event, is there any legal recourse akin to the Administrative Procedure Act that gives the person the right to administrative and judicial review of the decision? Are the specific guidelines and criteria that must be satisfied or followed set out in statute or regulation?

As a former legislative attorney in Nevada who worked specifically on the regulations for the Nevada State Athletic Commission (including the MMA regulations), I am obviously more accustomed to a formal regulatory environment. The whole situation in Georgia seems really strange to me.

However, as a fairly recent resident of South Carolina, I am appalled that MMA is banned here, and I sure would like to see it legalized and regulated. I may have to work on that issue in the near future.

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" The ISCF is certainly not a non promoting and neutral sanctioning body."

Yes they are . They do not promote events.

"The only GA promoters of MMA are ISCF board members."

Non-sequiter. Just because a promoter is on the board of ISCF does not make an event promoted by said promoter an event promoted by ISCF. If someone works at Kroger and they rob someone, does that mean Kroger robs people?

Also, Evolution Promotions, who promoted an event last December in GA that I fought on, is headed by people who are not on the ISCF board or involved in the ISCF in any way.

Kevin, your anti-ISCF hate agenda is shining brightly. :)

"One promoter was told he could not have an MMA date in GA because there was a kickboxing event in Iowa too close to that date."

I would like to hear some more details on that one...

"Cam, can you tell us how many non-GA promoters put on an event in that state with ISCF sanctioning in 2004 VS GA promoters?"

A better question is "how many out of state promoters put on shows outside of their home state?".

Hardly any. Hell even UFC is staying in Nevada exclusively now. How many non FL promoters put on shows in FL last year? None. The same is true with 99.9% of all other promotions and states.

As stated above, Evolution Promotions promoted an event in December. They are not from out of state but they are not associated with ISCF in any way.

" Personally, I find it a bit bizarre that MMA is regulated by an organization that is not a governmental agency."

Why now? You never found it bizarre before now that kickboxing has always been regulated by non governmental agencies for the past 35 years? What makes them different from MMA in that respect?

Peace-
Cam

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"Why now? You never found it bizarre before now that kickboxing has always been regulated by non governmental agencies for the past 35 years? What makes them different from MMA in that respect?"

No, I find that arrangement just as odd for kickboxing, too. If it's a professional pursuit, then usually it is treated as such and regulated by a governmental authority. But hey, maybe it's just me. :) I was just providing my unique perspective of the thing.

I do not mean to criticize the ISCF or draw any negative suggestions, conclusions or implications about their actions. I've been to exactly one MMA show in GA, and it appeared to be quite well run. It just seems odd to me that any type of occupation or professional endeavor would be exempted from governmental regulation, but still be subject to some type of review and approval by a nongovernmental body. That arrangement is certainly preferable to an outright ban on MMA or to regulation by a body consisting of jackasses who know exactly zero about MMA. The downside is that it appears to place a lot of faith and power in the sanctioning body, without any corresponding limitations or formal checks on whether it is acting fairly.

Please be clear that I am not suggesting that ISCF is unfair in reviewing promoters or events. I take it that there are not, in fact, any established standards, guidelines or criteria that specifically address the issues of suitability of a person and there is not any formal process by which any determination made by the ISCF could be challenged by an interested person based on a failure to satisfy any established standards, guidelines or criteria?

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My name is David Oblas and I am an Atlanta promoter. I have promoted 14 shows in the past 2.5 yrs. I have done boxing on all my shows with a combo of muay thai, kickboxing and mma.

I have been denied multiple times by the iscf for reasons ranging from there's an mma show in Alabama that weekend, there's an IKF kickboxing show in Iowa the next weekend, there's an iscf mma show within a month before or after the date I pick, etc etc etc.

Now they've said they'll grant me the license of being a licensed iscf promoter; but I can't seem to get a date picked. Plus now they're saying I can't ever do boxing and mma together because they don't want to work side by side with the Athletic Commission. This is hurting fighters and fans in GA.

Basically, like other people have stated, if you're not "in the loop" then you'll never promote in GA.

The ISCF supporters quickly rebuttle that nobody has been denied except for two people. That's wrong. I'm a third. There's a fourth person on this board that has stood up and said he was denied. There's a fifth person in GA that tried to promote that was ignored. So now we're up to five people that have tried to promote in the past year that have either been denied or ignored. Imagine how many more out there have been stonewalled that don't know the proper channels to get their voice heard.

Many fighters and trainers in GA want a change. But unfortunately they cannot get on message boards and say so or say so in public because the ISCF is the only show in town. Publicly piss them off and you'll never fight again. Let's just say everytime I walk into a gym in Atlanta fighters approach me and thank me and tell me they wish they could speak up publicly; but they can't bite the hand that feeds them.

Cam - I thought myself and Kevin Gittemeier showed you some facts after the meeting when we sat down alone. I'd love to pull out my folder of emails and documents and review them again with you. I'd love to show you again how someone high up in the iscf was caught posting under the name "slammer" on an iscf message board tearing me apart prior to denying me a promoter's license saying it was only a problem 'with the date I chose'.

The iscf does a terrific job of maintaining fighter safety and keeping a good show running. I will give credit where credit is due. But they also do an excellent job of making sure only their board members are promoters. Go to the iscf website and count the # of shows in GA in the past three years and you'll notice the # of shows has declined dramatically yet everyone admits that GA is a hotbed for mma right now.

A hotbed for mma yet the # of shows has declined over the past three years and you have other promoters trying to put on shows....hmmmm....something doesn't sound right.

Simpy put; bring in other mma sanctioning bodies in GA and I guarantee the # of shows in GA will increase. Shoot; I'll do six a year myself.

This is the first and last time I'll post on this site. If anyone would like to contact me it's dave@undisputedproductions.com

Until then; go and buy tickets for this Friday's Atlanta's Friday Night Fights featuring boxing and muay thai (shameless plug).

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ttt for 'lost' applications to hold an event in GA.I have received several emails and phone calls since posting on this thread, and they said that they wish they could support me on here but that the ISCF would never let them have a show or fight again if they did.

Cam, why do you guys keep saying 'only two people were denied' when in fact that is completely false?

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I'll tell you what - I had some money banked to do a show in WV but it doesn't look like it will be happening for a while because the AC is still not allowing MMA in WV.

I am going to apply to have a show in GA instead. I am certainly well established in the MMA community, co-promoted the Quest show in Ohio, and have worked for the IKF/ISCF in the past. My financials are in good standing. I am friends with several promoters and ISCF members, and I know the fighters in that area pretty well.

I am going to apply for a show in GA and track the entire process here on the UG so people can see how it goes. This would also be useful info for the lawmakers of GA I think.

Cam, could you please explain what the process is to apply for sanctioning in the state of GA through the ISCF?

I have just printed the application from the ISCF site at

http://www.iscfmma.com/ISCFPromoterRegForm.htm

I am going to fill it out today, and tomorrow I will FedEx it to

ISCF/IKF, P.O. Box 1205, Newcastle, CA, 95658, USA

I will take photos of everything and post them here, including any delivery acceptance info.

Cam, can you tell me what happens from there? How long before I get a response, etc.?

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Today is the day ISCF forecasted that their current proposed rules would become final. Since you know where their website is, I would make sure they are, indeed, final, before you send in the information. The proposed rules do not differentiate applications for specific states, so that implies that one only need apply to the ISCF office and all answers, for shows in any state, should issue from there.

Also, Orion/Cam is the ISCF Officials Representative, so asking him about sanctioning times/processes/etc. on a set of new proposed/maybe final rules probably will not get you the answers to those questions. He may have them, but I would direct your questions to Steve Fossum.

I'm interested to see how this will pan out: posting all this stuff here.....

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The ISCF bashing on this thread is crazy. Without the ISCF then there would be no MMA in Georgia. The ISCF and Mike Carlson fought to make MMA legal in Ga. The ISCF is more than willing to have another sanctioning body in the state as long as its not the boxing commission that knows nothing about nor cares about MMA and anyone that associates with a criminal. I don't want say an Ectasy dealer promoting shows and working with fighters etc. It gives the sport a black eye with respect to the lawmakers in the state. I have read many times the proposed bill to make the Boxing commission the sole sanctioning body for MMA and the fees would MMA unprofitable to promote unless they waive some of their fees which I am sure they would do for friends of theirs that want to promote shows but would not for people that aren't their friends. The ISCF is working to fix their shortcomings and improve as an organization.

Grapple-I find it hard to believe that you think that a government regulatory agency would do a better job than a private company. When does the government EVER do anything better than a private entity?

Tripp Owings