ISCF Helps Make MMA Legal

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141

Email to Brett:

Since I have your attention:

Brett, did you deny a show in GA due to the IKF show in IOWA???

"The IKF Nationals are that weekend.............The IKF is the parent of the ISCF and they would not want to take any of the spotlight away from their most important event of the year." From Brett Moses To Dave Oblas June 23, 2003

This is an example I am speaking of. It is bad for an organization to have sole sanctioning power due to stuff like the above. A show in GA should be able to run regardless of what is happening in IOWA!

If I am wrong in thinking that, then please explain your point of view because I just don’t understand. I have been sent numerous emails and scenarios like the above over the last week or two.

Steve, do you want to set up a meeting? A scheduled time for me to call?

Johnny

142

I emailed in my sanctioning info to Steve Fossum yesterday as instructed on the iscf website and haven't heard back yet.

But this is not an issue because (1) Steve is out sick as explained above and (2) the website says to allow seven days for a reply to an application.

When I hear something back I'll let people know on this board.

143

"Cam, do you think boxing and mma should take place on the same fight card?"

No.

"Why or why not?"

Because the average boxing fans want to see two men slug it out until one or both are brain damaged and they are not educated enough about MMA to appreciate it. This attitude coupled with alcohol sales is too volatile and is not the atmosphere that should be present at an MMA event. Maybe in the future when people get more educated about the sport but I don't think it's reached that level yet, as has been proven by the rowdy volatile crowds at the 3 shows you speak about.

"Should fighters have to suffer and the fans have to suffer"

What fans are suffering? The MMA fans complained that they had to sit through numerous "boring" boxing matches and the boxing fans all complained that the fights were stopped early or that the fights were boring because "all the fighters did was lay on the ground and hug each other". Your logic is backwards... by doing boxing and MMA shows together the fans are suffering.

"Especially when this has already taken place in Atlanta three times and it was by far the biggest crowds to ever witness mma in Atlanta."

Yes, and were also the rowdiest and most volatile crowds ever....

Peace-
Cam

144

Cam, Steve, and Brett have accused everyone on this board that states a fact or makes an opinion the ISCF disagrees with a liar, myself included..

If any of you will please past any comment of mine that is false I will promptly apologize.

Kevin Gittemeier

145

Cam’s take on the ISCF’s application procedure and controversy,

“Because of the ISCF's track record I find it very difficult to hold one aspect of protocol against them, ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT ASPECT OF PROTOCOL IS BEING AMENDED.”

Cam, let us not forget that the issue is not about poorly written procedures or protocol, it is rather about the ISCF’s concerted effort to block out any perceived competition whether it be MMA, Shidokan, or Muay Thai. Since the same people (Fossum, Mosses,ISCF board members) that actively did everything in their power to ignore, block, stop, and discredit promoters, are still in controlling positions how can you state that an amendment will fix these problems? Are they going to amend their true feelings? Do we have any reason to believe they are now willing to allow NON-ISCF board members to promote?

In regards to your support of the ISCF’s monopoly, why would you want your good friends in such a position of conflict with no checks and balances? Lets not tempt corruption with such unchecked power. Perhaps you have heard the phrase “lets keep the honest, honest”?

No one can make a logical argument that this monopoly is good for the fighters, fans, and the sport.

Kevin Gittemeier

146

"If any of you will please past any comment of mine that is false I will promptly apologize."

How about this one...

"ISCF’s concerted effort to block out any perceived competition whether it be MMA, Shidokan, or Muay Thai. Since the same people (Fossum, Mosses,ISCF board members) that actively did everything in their power to ignore, block, stop, and discredit promoters,"

"In regards to your support of the ISCF’s monopoly"

I don't "support" any monopoly, although I am not against one either as long as it's fair, safe and efficient. But you knew that already because I have said it at least 3 times in my post above. I have no idea why you chose to misquote me after I made it a point to state that so many times.

What is it you people are not understanding? No matter WHAT happens, ultimately there is going to be a monopoly, whether it be the ISCF, the athletic commission, or the illegalization of MMA altogether.

I keep seeing this concern about "checks and balances" and "who will I turn to if I have a problem with such and such?". Here's a better question... If the sanctioning org that was used for an event was the WKA and you had a problem, who would you turn to then? ISKA? ISCF? Who COULD you turn to? NOBODY. The bottom line is that when you bring in a sanctioning org they are the highest authority for that event, period. If the sanctioning org was the GA boxing commission and you had a problem who would you turn to? George W.? The Pope, maybe? They are the highest authority!!!!

If this new bill passes and the boxing commission is put in charge, they will be doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING except collecting and cashing checks. They will have no appeal authority as the approved sanctioning orgs will have the final say in any MMA matter. So, to answer that concern, if a promoter brings in a sanctioning org under the new law and a fighter has a problem, there will be NO ONE TO TURN TO because the appointed sanctioning org will be the highest authority. The commission is not offering checks and balances. They are not offering regulation. They are not offering safety. They are not offering guidelines or rules. So I have to ask, under this new bill, what exactly are we paying them for? What exactly are we getting in return for our money? Why is it even proposed that we include them at all, much less put them in complete control? Are we just looking for a proverbial wild hog to throw our money up the ass of and get absolutely nothing in return? Let's just put the commission in charge of everything... If you want to buy a new car, you have to give the commission some money. They won't help you buy it or even help you shop for it but they want your money just the same. If you want to buy a new house, give the commission some money. If you want to go out to a club amd go drinking, give the commission some money. Walk down the street (commission gets more money), breathe in (cha-ching!), breathe out (cha-ching!)....

This whole concept is simply ludicrous.

Peace-
Cam

147

Cam, I think there's a lot of things that you don't understand. Too much to type here.

But basically the Athletic Commission would allow several mma sanctioning bodies to come to GA - such as the ISCF and the WKA. Then myself, the promoter, would choose which sanc body to use for my events.

If I, the promoter, do something wrong or do not provide documents to fighters asking questions or others then fighters can next go to the Athletic Commission. They'd be monthly meetings where the promoter and the sanc body would BOTH have to answer questions.

If the questions were not answered or wrongdoing was found there would be a fine to the promoter and the sanc body the first time. Then the second time a mistake was found the sanc body and/or the promoter would be kicked out of the state for x amount of years.

Cam - that's what we in America call CHECKS AND BALANCES and BREAKING THE MONOPOLY. It's really not that hard to understand and I'd love for you to come to the next athletic commission meeting to understand it further.

Epecially since I have made it a habit to send you emails to let you know about the past two athletic commission meetings.

David Oblas

148

This issue is important enough for Cam to spend countless hours at the keyboard, yet when invited to the athletic commission meeting he claims it is too far to drive. Perhaps he has no desire to educate himself on the bill, it seems as if he is content to oppose it regardless of the facts. This way he can always plead ignorance when citing facts incorrectly.

Why all the AC hate? Are you ant-AC Cam? What problems has the GA AC ever had? If they did have problems what if they said the would amend them? Would you still be anti-AC?

Kevin Gittemeier

149

The current bill proposed by the AC would make MMA unprofitable in general to promote unless the commision decided to waive their exorbitant taxes/fees that are proposed in the bill. I am against the new bill.

150

Dock, it sounds like you have done some studying on the proposed law. Could you list the amounts of the "exorbitant taxes/fees that are proposed in the bill"? I would like to know the amounts of the proposed fees. Thanks.

151

"But basically the Athletic Commission would allow several mma sanctioning bodies to come to GA - such as the ISCF and the WKA. Then myself, the promoter, would choose which sanc body to use for my events."

I understand that part perfectly.

"If I, the promoter, do something wrong or do not provide documents to fighters asking questions or others then fighters can next go to the Athletic Commission. They'd be monthly meetings where the promoter and the sanc body would BOTH have to answer questions.

If the questions were not answered or wrongdoing was found there would be a fine to the promoter and the sanc body the first time. Then the second time a mistake was found the sanc body and/or the promoter would be kicked out of the state for x amount of years. "

So according to the new bill, each of these sanctioning orgs have to pay the AC $1000 a year to come to a state and be a sanctioning org where their authority actually means nothing. Who determines what constitutes a "wrong doing" or a "mistake"? The bill lays out no guidelines on this matter. So basically, who polices the police in this scenario, or to quote Kevin, "who keeps the honest honest"?

"Cam - that's what we in America call CHECKS AND BALANCES and BREAKING THE MONOPOLY."

No it's not. The AC will have a monopoly because it will have total control and say so over everything and the guidelines are so arbitrary and ambiguous that it's left wide open. They can approve or disapprove whoever they want to, they can penalize whoever they want to, charge or not charge whoever they want to and declare what constitutes a "wrong doing or mistake" without any prior documentation and with absolutely no reason or checks and balances or requirement to answer to a higher authority. That is a monopoly.

"This issue is important enough for Cam to spend countless hours at the keyboard, yet when invited to the athletic commission meeting he claims it is too far to drive."

And yet another lie. I never made any such claim. I am starting to see how easy these lies just seem to roll off, like it's starting to become compulsive and accepted behavior.

"Perhaps he has no desire to educate himself on the bill, it seems as if he is content to oppose it regardless of the facts. This way he can always plead ignorance when citing facts incorrectly."

LOL. I can read just fine. I don't need to drive up to Atlanta so someone can give me their "interpretation" of the bill or their interpretation of one way the bill could be interpreted. I can read it in plain black and white.

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/search/sb224.htm

"Why all the AC hate? Are you ant-AC Cam?"

Yes.

"What problems has the GA AC ever had?"

Well firstly, they will be a monopoly and they will suffer the same problems that you say you have with the ISCF, so there will be no step forward in that regard, only a lateral movement. Secondly, we all know how much corruption is within the boxing commission. They are knowingly turning a blind eye to blatant infractions of the law by other event promoters while focusing on and creating red herring issues that do not exist in order to gain control. Lastly, they will have people in ultimate power over MMA that have no knowledge of MMA. They will also be raising the costs to promote a show substantially so that so many promoters will no longer be able to promote and in turn the number of shows will decline dramatically in GA. They are also taking money and offering absolutely nothing in return, as I covered extensively in a post above.

Bottom line is that if the goal is to break a monopoly and let other sanctioning orgs into the state, then that is the answer. It's that simple. Involving the AC is costly and unnecessary and it also negates the argument of dissolving a monopoly because it is simply creating a new on with a different name with even more inherent problems than the old one.

If you are supporting this new bill then please stop using the excuse of dissolving a monopoly because that's transparent and ludicrous.

Peace-
Cam

152

Fees as the bill is written now

Annual promoters fee $500

Per event (all fights) $250

Annual Sanctioning body fee $1000

These numbers are maximum allowed. There can not be an increase in fees without the passage of a new law.

There was some confusion as to the $250 per match/event language, the new language makes it clear that $250 covers the whole event all fights.

Four changes were made at the last AC meeting, one on the recommendation of Brett Moses and Myself three on my and other’s recommendations. The AC is open to any input and would very much like more MMA fans,fighters, and promoters to give their perspective.

Four changes

1) State a max fee that can not be raised without the passage of a new law.

This was my biggest objection with the old bill, the fear of fees going up. Now they are set in stone.

2) Allow board members of a sanctioning body to be promoters (the orig bill criminalized this). This was thought to be less of a conflict if other sanctioning bodies were allowed in GA (honesty through competition) Brett and I effectively proposed this change.

3) Make more clear the per event language, some thought $250 per fight.

4) Strengthen the language to keep felons out, this was done simply because the ISCF used this issue as their crutch and claimed to support the bill with this clause. It was to eliminate any argument or opposition.

As the bill is currently written I don’t believe I have any objection to it.

Any concerned with this issue in GA please come to the next AC meeting.

Kevin Gittemeier

153

"Could you list the amounts of the "exorbitant taxes/fees that are proposed in the bill"? I would like to know the amounts of the proposed fees. Thanks."

Most of them are left wide open and give the AC the authority to establish them AFTER the bill is passed. How's that for a loophole and ambiguous guidelines?

Anyway, fees set forth so far-

Sanctioning orgs must pay licensing fee of $1000 a year to AC (which they will no doubt pass the costs on to through the promoters)

Promoters must pay a $500 promoter's fee yearly.

Each event will have an AC sanctioning fee of $250 (for what services rendered I have no idea) and this is in addition to what the promoter has to pay the sanctioning body to come in and sanction the show, so in essence the promoters will have to pay two sanctioning fees to two sanctioning organizations, one of which will not even be acting in any official capacity other than accepting a check.

The AC get 5% of gross ticket sales for all events.

These are set so far. Keep in mind this does not include fees that the AC can and will establish after the bill is passed.

"But basically the Athletic Commission would allow several mma sanctioning bodies to come to GA - such as the ISCF and the WKA. Then myself, the promoter, would choose which sanc body to use for my events."

Wooops! There's another one of those lies... or are you not aware that the ISCF is not listed as an accepted sanctioning org in the new bill?

Frank- Yes, the cost in FL is $5000 and we see how drastically the number of shows in FL has declined over the past few years. The only reason the AFC is able to afford to promote is because they have backers with deep pockets that can afford it.

So let's look at the facts

This new bill puts the AC in complete control (monopoly).

It raises the costs of promoting substantially.

It offers no checks and balances.

It does not support "free market" as many have voiced concern over.

I do not support it.

I have to ask, if the primary concern is the dissolution of a monopoly then why can't the bill be left as it is with two amendments...

1.) Allow other sanctiong orgs in GA to be named in the bill (excluding the AC).

2.) Include the 10 year felon ban as is policy in all other states and organizations.

This would dissolve the monopoly and would keep costs at a minimum and not put people in charge that are not knowledgable about MMA and that have ulterior motives.

Peace-
Cam

154

--- "This new bill puts the AC in complete control (monopoly)."

That is like saying that the state police have a Monopoly on law enforcement on the highways... "monopoly" does not apply
The state authority... Besides, I thought the issue of Monopoly was irrelevant, so long as things are done safe and effectively???

--- "It raises the costs of promoting substantially."

This, I believe, is necessary... Only serious, financially sound individuals will enter into the promoting game. And it is not so outrageous as compared to other state commissions.

--- "It offers no checks and balances."

This is where sanctioning bodies do come in... To represent the sport's interests if things get out of line... If and org can get the state to agree to allowing MMA in the first place, then it should be able to speak up when issues arise (on the sports behalf - like a lobby).

--- "It does not support "free market" as many have voiced concern over."

Nor does an independant sanctioning body monopoly that you claim to "not care one way or the other on". Why do you care if the state interrupts the "free market" but not a sanctioing monopoly???

155

“Most of them are left wide open and give the AC the authority to establish them AFTER the bill is passed. How's that for a loophole and ambiguous guidelines?”

Cam where is it that you get your information, it seems to contradict the current bill as now written? Perhaps you should attend an AC meeting to provide some of your wisdom and input, the MMA community would be greatful.

Cam all the concerns you have with the AC, legit or not, the ISCF is guilty of, but since your friends with them that is ok.

Cam you are completely incapable of providing any accurate information to support your argument so you simply make it up like a politician using social security as a scare tactic.

Kevin Gittemeier

156

"Besides, I thought the issue of Monopoly was irrelevant, so long as things are done safe and effectively???"

The AC is doing NOTHING in terms of "safe and efficient" other than raising prices and accepting checks. They are leaving all the WORK to be done by the sanctioning orgs, so why involve the AC at all?

"Only serious, financially sound individuals will enter into the promoting game."

Or people who are utilizing loopholes in the corrupt system...

"Nor does an independant sanctioning body monopoly that you claim to "not care one way or the other on". Why do you care if the state interrupts the "free market" but not a sanctioing monopoly???"

Read my above post again. I want to allow other sanctioning orgs in but not involve the AC at all. Therefore, no monopoly.

"Cam where is it that you get your information, it seems to contradict the current bill as now written?"

I am reading the bill at the link I posted above. Show me where it establishes any licensing fees for fighters, corners, managers, etc... It also says the commission can "exempt" anyone they want from licensure and gives no guidelines.

"Cam all the concerns you have with the AC, legit or not, the ISCF is guilty of, but since your friends with them that is ok."

Man, there is some serious lack reading comprehension in this thread. It has nothing to do with friends. I have stated 1000 times that to solve the problem all that is needed is to allow other sanctioning ogs in the state. THAT will solve the problems. By giving the AC complete control it's not solving ANY problems and only creating MORE, especiall by putting ignorant people in charge of MMA and by raising fees. Again, I ask WHY ARE WE GOING TO BE REQUIRED TO PAY THE AC THESE EXHORBITANT FEES WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO BE OFFERING NOTHING IN RETURN???? The sanctioning orgs are going to be establishing all the guidelines, rules and regulations and overseeing the events. All the AC is doing is sitting back and cashing in.

"Cam you are completely incapable of providing any accurate information to support your argument so you simply make it up like a politician using social security as a scare tactic."

What are you babbling about now? How much more accurate can I get?

Then you answer these questions for me. (answer the questions and stick to the issues, not get on about crushing bottles with bare hands or any other extracurricular bullshit intended to take focus away from the issues or resorting to ad hominem attacks meant to take focus off the issues).

1.) What makes an AC monopoly better than an ISCF monopoly?

2.) What will the AC offer in return for all these fees they will be getting paid?

3.) Why is involving the AC better than simply changing the bill to allow other orgs and ban felons?

I look forward to some simple, straight forward answers.

Peace-
Cam

157

Cam, the iscf has had numerous opportunities to allow other sanctioning bodies into GA and has never done so. The issue at hand is it's enough is enough with the iscf.

I talked to Brian Crenshaw, the head of the WKA on Monday. He emailed Fossum on Monday asking him permission for the WKA to sanction my upcoming MMA fights in GA. It's now Wed at 8 pm and no reply yet to at least two emails sent by Crenshaw to Fossum that I'm aware of.

But yet Fossum has time to email out a two-page mass email this afternoon. Immediately when I received it I emailed Fossum and asked him how if he has time to be sending out mass emails that dissect the bill how does he not have time to email a yes or no answer to Brian Crenshaw of the WKA. I'm still yet to hear back from Fossum.

158

Kevin G. V.S. Orion @170

Lets get it on!!!

159

"Cam, the iscf has had numerous opportunities to allow other sanctioning bodies into GA and has never done so. The issue at hand is it's enough is enough with the iscf."

I cannot believe for the life of me that you are still hanging on to this ludicrous notion.

I want EVERYONE to pay attention to this because this will expose the way the detractors are setting up their arguments and how they are going abou their agenda. I don't know if they really believe the things they are saying or if they are simply uneducated as to how things work...

First of all, David, I heard you say this numerous times in our meeting and it was explained to you then... the ISCF does not have the authority to "allow other sanctioning bodies in the state" under the current law. The ISCF was simply stated by the law to be the only one, it didn't give them authority to allow others in. For other sanctioning orgs to be allowed to sanction in GA there has to be legislative amendments to the bill making those allowances. Laws have to be passed. It really scares me that you guys are championing this new bill when you seem to have no clue as to the legislative processes.

States pass the law that says you can't murder someone. They then hire police officers to enforce that law. The police officers do not have the authority to tell someone that it is OK for them to murder someone. Your argument is akin to someon saying "but the police can give the OK that it is alright to murder people". That's simply not true. Legislature has to be passed to change the law.

Currently, the law states that the ISCF is the only legal sanctioning body allowed in GA. It DOES NOT give the ISCF authority to approve or disapprove other sanctioning orgs in the state.

"I talked to Brian Crenshaw, the head of the WKA on Monday. He emailed Fossum on Monday asking him permission for the WKA to sanction my upcoming MMA fights in GA. It's now Wed at 8 pm and no reply yet to at least two emails sent by Crenshaw to Fossum that I'm aware of."

Fossum DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY to tell the WKA that they can sanction MMA in GA!!!!! The law has to be passed that says teh WKA can be allowed.

"But yet Fossum has time to email out a two-page mass email this afternoon. Immediately when I received it I emailed Fossum and asked him how if he has time to be sending out mass emails that dissect the bill how does he not have time to email a yes or no answer to Brian Crenshaw of the WKA. I'm still yet to hear back from Fossum."

LOL!!!!!!! It's not up to Fossum. He has no say so whatsoever in the situation. What do you want him to take the time to do? Actually, Fossum is probably dumbfounded that you are so clueless as to how the legislative process works. He can't tell Crenshaw "yes, you can sanction MMA in GA" because it's against the law. Fossum does not have that authority. What is it you don't understand?

I keep seeing statements like "Cam you are completely incapable of providing any accurate information to support your argument". The sad thing is when I state accurate information and point out problems going so far as to post links to the actual bill, they get ignored. No one is addresing the issues or attacking the facts, they are simply saying things like "you sure do spend a lot of time on the keyboard" and "I'll bet you could break glass with your grip". What the hell does that have to do with the issues? What does that have to do with accurate information? What does attacking my credibility and character have to do with the issues? Absolutely NOTHING. Is there so little faith in the ability to debate the issues that we have to resort to ad hominem attacks and smoke and mirrors tactics to take focus off the issues?

This is par for the course for the detractors. It's their modus operandi. Thay are already doing it with the insurance scandal. They are focusing so much attention on an issue that is completely moot and totally ignoring that the AC is turning a blind eye to blatant infractions of the law in the instance of other promotions in GA. Look at the red herring, look at the red herring, but please do not read the bill or ask questions that pertain to important issues. Do not notice that the AC is failing to do its job by not enforcing the law in certain instances.

What is putting the AC in control of a monopoly in GA going to do that simply changing the bill to allow other sanctioning orgs in the state will not do? The only things are this

1.) Maintains a monopoly and puts people in charge that have agendas and turn blind eyes to people in their pockets when they break the law. Is everyone so naive to believe that these same people who are getting a blind eye turned to them now will not have the fees waived if this bill passes? The new bill leaves it wide open for the AC to waive fees for whoever they see fit and there are no guidelines that dictate protocol in this matter.

2.) Puts people in charge of MMA that are not knowledgable of the sport and do not have the best interest of the sport in mind.

3.) Raises costs and puts money in the pockets of the AC, for which there are NO services rendered, and in turn will drastically reduce the number of promoters and shows in GA.

The main question I want a simple, straightforward answer to-

What benefits does the proposed bill have over simply amending the current bill to allow other sanctioning orgs in and denying felons? I have pointed out all the cons above, so lets hear the pros of the proposed bill over simply an amendment allowing other sanctioning orgs.

Also, has anyone noticed that under the current wording of the new proposed bill that no amateur MMA will be allowed in the state of GA anymore?

Peace-
Cam

160

Cam, the CURRENT LAW says this sentence: "(vii) Mixed martial arts fighting when the competition is sanctioned, approved, or endorsed by the International Sport Combat Federation (ISCF)."

You need to call a lawyer or someone that knows how to read laws, as myself and others have done. The CURRENT LAW says that MMA fighting can occur in GA when ENDORSED by the ISCF.

That simple sentence means that the ISCF can tell the state that they are authorizing/endorsing another nationally reputable sanctioning body, such as the WKA, to sanction MMA fights in the state of GA.

That should not be too tough to understand.