dude, this isn't Georgiev. This guy has an abysmal record in Judo. And combat sambo world champ does not mean much. I have a friend who medalled there who couldn't win a match at Judo nationals. Don't give too much meaning to the term 'world champ' :)
They are roughly at the same level and same years of experience. In fact, the BJJ guy has a bit more experience in grappling (gi and no gi').
If Ann Maria wasn't Ann Maria, she'd be labled a troll and ran off the judo forums. This is silly.
I am assistant coach for a judo youth and adult program. Our head coach is a traditional judo blackbelt. I'm a bjj brown belt and judo blackbelt. We have a former OU wrestler who is a blackbelt.
There are times when a bjj or wrestling move is applicable to and can be used in judo. Our kids call it all judo but we combine traditional judo with some cross training and have found that it works for us.
My point in that area of discussion is that it was a bad example, just like BJ Penn's white belt domination of a black belt Judo division is a terrible example as well. BJJ is not well established in Europe and quality competitors, instruction, and training is few and far between. Save Gunnar Nelson, there is not a single European competitor who threatens wins in top level BB BJJ competition. The case for European Judo is quite the opposite. This match proves as much as a match between a BJJ blue belt and Judo green belt.
There is no doubt that too much BJJ can be bad for your Judo competition results. Could you imagine training BJJ 5 days a week and Judo 2 days and expecting improvement in your results? Of course not, its ludicrous. However, we have at our disposal a group of people who do nothing but train newaza, I believe a smart player would be able to use that resource effectively to better his Judo. Can that tool be used improperly? Of course. If a player spends his time mastering kneebars, long, slow setups for his attacks, etc he would be hammering a nail with a screwdriver wouldn't he?
To be clear, I train and compete in both sports, feel that they are both one dimensional, and try to be as well rounded as a grappler as I can.
Gbutt, I completely agree with you. I have been around both disciplines (extensively). I tell you, I can spot a good Judo newaza player when he show up to train. Why? I will gave you examples; pressing arm bars- in particular the many varities that float off the hips or across the chest region as a fulcrum - to include the swim through roll-to armlock; like modified whizzers and sit outs, also looping chokes that rely on whole body movements, as oppose to the more complicated, slower set-up and feeding chokes common in BJJ. These same player however are also more prone to getting swept and have limited guard passes in general. BUT this is where the agreement with you lay: The rules and time constraints for a ground fight have made for the development and use of the mentioned technical examples. The Judoka has next to no time for set up, playing guard etc., so If a submission is going to happen, it will be SWIFT and out of nowhere, as they say. Let us not forget that a tight pin will win a ground fight as well, so why risk a submission hunt if you are in control of your opponent? The Judoka must move like a wrestler on the ground. You made some great points, senor.
HoldYerGround,
Look, both guys have roughly the same time in grappling, one in BJJ and the other in Judo/Sambo. Both are quite experienced, so its not some newbies where a huge variation of skills can take place.
In fact, the Judo guy's groundwork is known to be shitty as hell. And the BJJ guy is very good on the ground. Strictly technically, he is way better than this Judo guy.
My point is that:
1. Even a person with a very advanced BJJ couldn't do anything with a good Judo player on the ground in a match with a time limit. This match is actually fairly representative from what I've seen: BJJ dudes have extremely difficult time with serious, but far from A-level Judo/Sambo competitors in gi' matches, even under BJJ rules.
2. To really benefit from BJJ, my experience is that you really really need to pick the key parts and adapt them to Judo carefully. That also means you need to be a damn good Judo player already. Believe me, I have trained with some very good BJJ black belts, watched lots of BJJ DVD's looking to pick up good stuff to Judo. Its possible, but it takes a while.
Reality is, 99% of BJJ dudes in the US have not trained with serious Judo competitors. In Europe, there are many Judoka who are very strong on the ground. Many, who retire from A-level competition in fact train more like 70% ground work, due to the many injuries from Judo.
Even the very top BJJ black belts would have tremendous trouble trying to sweep or submit them in a 5 min gi' match.
Its possible to benefit from BJJ for competitive Judo, I did learn a pass from BJJ that helped me win in Judo by pins, but it did take a while to adapt to Judo.
maximum efficiency....
if you want to get really good at newaza you are more likely to achieve that goal by finding a good bjj school and working with them.
go 2x a week for 6 months and see what type of results you get.
if you go to two extra judo classes a week they will not make you as effective as those two extra bjj classes.
If your dojo does 2 extra newaza only sessions a week congrats your newaza will get really good but the truth is that very very few dojos do anything like that and very few dojos do a lot of newaza.
I do think that even if you get a good blue belt or purple in judo they need to learn Judo newaza.. the strategy is different.. the defenses used against you are different.. positions will be different, pace will be different etc etc but still it will carry over or these new situations will not take long to adjust too..
..
judoblackbelt - Readying all the comments once you enter the "other" sports elements the favor is with the other sport. There are some elements that are commonly shared among BJJ, sambo,wrestling, judo. Xtraining might enhance one facet of your particular sport.But won't make a huge difference in your success in your sport. If you want to be a judo champion then you better be able to throw for ippon. The most balanced fighter the US has is Kayla Harrrison who can win either with her standup skills or mat skills. Ronda was similar in her abilities. Pedro was similar, equal standup/mat skills.
This is very very true. While my BJJ background has helped me tremendously in Judo tournaments I would have been killed had I not been drilling my throws like crazy. Granted they aren't to the same proficiency as my ground work but the bottom line is if you want to be good you need to have both.
I think Dr. Ann Maria is trolling to an extent, but I'll bite anyway.
I started out in BJJ under Tinguinha (who, btw, is one of the best teachers I've ever had). I trained at his dojo in Anaheim for a year and a half before he moved.
Later, I quit BJJ and began judo. I have met some guys with good newaza, but by and large, most guys--aside from some pins and gi chokes--don't handle themselves on the ground very well.
I can't comment on how things are in Europe like Judom has, but even here now in S. Korea, newaza doesn't seem to be that strong in general.
So, while judo may be all that you need, the fact that so many dojos don't offer much in the way of newaza instruction is reason to seek out the expertise of BJJ instructors.
Oh for fuck's sake, she already covered herself with an additional comment that I didn't see until now:
"I think we are in agreement. Basically, what I said is if your judo matwork is really bad, BJJ will help. I think your point (which I agree with) is that in some places the matwork in the judo clubs is really bad and the players are better off going to a BJJ club for matwork."
I dunno, DAM seems like sort of an antagonizing person.