What is the relationship of Judo to Freestyle and/or Greco-Roman wrestling in Japan?
Is there a lot of crossover between the two sports, i.e. are there many people (i.e. more so than is the case in the U.S.) who have done both? Do the two sports generally compete for the same pool of talent similar to how in the U.S. almost 100% of all Freestyle or Greco-Roman wrestlers started out in American Folkstyle/Collegiate Wrestling? Is one or the other considered to be the more "prestigious" type of grappling/wrestling, the way that Freestyle Wrestling tends to get the better talent from the Collegiate ranks in the U.S.?
Furthermore, has their approach to Freestyle or Greco-Roman wrestling been influenced, in any demonstrable way, by Judo? If so, to what degree?
IF some of those who are knowledgeable about Judo and Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling in Japan could share their knowledge about the questions that I've posed above, I'd appreciate it.
Furthermore, has their approach to Freestyle or Greco-Roman wrestling been influenced, in any demonstrable way, by Judo? If so, to what degree?
I dont think so. I may be mistaken but I think the Japanese wrestle Greco like to Koreans do, tight and conservative, yet explosive when an opportunity arises. The former Soviet countries definately have a Judo/Sambo-esque freestyle wrestling. My wrestling coach(former Soviet assisstant coach) has shown me all kinds of dynamic reaps, sweeps,etc that could definately pass for no-gi Judo.
Recently Inoue Kosei said on his blog that the all japan judo team did a camp with the wrestling team. Inoue commented that the wrestlers were so muscular and strong, which is funny because Inoue is about as jacked as is humanly possible.
Personally I noticed a lot of Japanese losing to double legs at the last Worlds, maybe this training will help fill that gap.
Also I don't know if you saw it, but there was a thread about a month ago on the UG where this Aussie heavyweight wrestler was posting. He is currently training and attending school at Kokushikan and he does some cross training with the judo team. He said he was the only wrestler who did that.
A few years ago I was asked to help with the Japanese national HS wrestling team. I took the coaches for a few hours sight seeing in Cleveland. Don't kid yourself that they don't know judo. I took about 5 extra gi's with me to practice. 5 guys jumped on it. But for not very long. They just got finished with a 3 hour practice with St. Eds. They boys when the put the gis on had alot of judo in them.
My judo teacher wrestled for Meiji University in the 60's. Don't think he made the judo team, though. he told me he placed 2nd (wrestling or judo) and didn't qualify for the national team (for olympics). Came to America to open a dojo. Their loss, our gain.
there's a lot of judo in sumo too.. of a lot of sumo in judo. truth is that all the grappling arts have lots in common and it really doesnt make any difference where you learn what you learn, its how well you learn it and how well you can apply it. that is an individual thing, not a specific sport thing.
I agree Josh, I was just wondering how common it was for wrestlers in Japan to train Judo for Judo, much like how it is quite common for people in the U.S., if they wrestle Freestyle, to have wrestled Folkstyle at one point.
well, almost everybody who ever wrestled in the USA did folkstyle for quite awhile. it the the predominant form of wrestling in the USA. i dont know anybody who wrestled and didnt do folkstyle in HS.
i dont think anybody here is able to answer your question fairly about the link between judo and wrestling in japan.
"...truth is that all the grappling arts have lots in common and it really doesnt make any difference where you learn what you learn, its how well you learn it and how well you can apply it. that is an individual thing, not a specific sport thing."
Excellent point.
Fightstudent,
I think Josh has a point about how fairly people here can answer the question concerning the link between Judo and wrestling in Japan. Most of us here haven't been to lived in Japan nor have been raised in Japan.
I think any "answer" or "insight" most of us could provide would be based on each our own limited experience and assumptions.
The only insight I have to the Japanese culture as it relates to martial arts including Judo is from my former Karate/Judo instructor and many of my former Judo training partners. All were Japanese, born and raised in Japan. None of them wrestled although my instructor did do ALOT of sumo when he was young. In fact Sumo was such a big part of his training growing up that he actually had us practice Sumo.
Because Judo is so popular in Japan and because it is taught in the Japanese school system I think (now this is my assumption) that most Japanese who have a background in Judo (that is they know and played Judo) learned it (Judo) while they were in school (elementary, middle, high school) and most likely competed at some point assuming they did Judo for a while.
I know they are alot of Kyokushibkai Karate fighters that were former Judokas who competed in Judo while in high school etc.
I am assuming that many Japanese who participate in other combat sports like Karate and wrestling "probably" started out in Judo first. So you're probably right in that many Japanese wrestlers and Karateka were probably former Judokas. I wouldn't say most but I would say a pretty large percentage. Incidently with the exception of probably Sumo I don't think many current serious Japanese Judokas ever did other combat sports other than Judo. I think the opposite is true for other combat sports.
Many years ago, I watched what I thought at the time was a very ironic Olympic freestyle wrestling match. It was the lightest weight division, and for the goldmedal.
American guy vs. Japanese guy. The Japanese guy moved, stretched, and looked like a judoka before he got on the mat. I thought, boy, this should be interesting!
So the go out, move about a bit, and grip up, quite upright, head and arm I ties I think. American takes moves Japanese to the left sideways. Looks almost like a no gi judo match!
American hooks in with a cross-body osoto and SLAMS the Japanese for a 5 point throw.
I don't follow wrestling, but is this how the Japanese wrestle in international competition? I would think most of their takedowns are still doubles/singles in freestyle.