Judo forum is p*ssing me off:help!

Underground
21

Paul seems to have nailed this one.

For elite athletes, it seems that this kind of thing might be OK. I have heard anecdotes about people training in advanced BJJ classes in brazil and visiting on a "no-tap" day. During these training sessions, if you get caught in a choke, you go out. When you wake up, your partner is typically across the room, rolling with someone else.

I can't say I'd train that way, unless I was really seriously working on winning the next olympics (which, arguably, some of these guys might be able to say for themselves). I guess I'm a little but more on the "recreational" side of the coin, compared to this.

~TT

22

Even with elite athletes, I would still say this type of training would be an exception rather than the rule. Like you say, an advanced class, with a specific "no tap to chokes" day. Not day in and day out.

Also, some chokes are also neck cranks, and if my neck starts popping and I start tapping, that guy needs to let go or else I am going to be in the hospital. It can be as competitive and hardcore as you want, but this "no tap" thing needs to be done with people you trust.

23

There is never a valid reason for that type of training.

Being choked out risks potential injury. There is a small percentage of people which can go into seizure, and there is always potential for brain damage. It's not helpful technically, it doesn't make you any "tougher", and it serves no functional purpose.

Otherwise stated, it's really stupid.

If any athlete feels they need this type of training then that is a really good indication that what is needed for that person is some form of psychological therapy, and some mature male role models.

Check Rodney's BLOG for a story regarding a high level competitive Judoka with 25 plus Years, and the groundgame of a BJJ white belt. Due precisely to this kind of mentality. That misguided mindset, and false beliefs regarding what "tough" training actually means, halts growth in performance more then anything else I know.

24

amen brother. Couldn't have said it any better than Matt.

25

Matt-agreed wholeheartedly

26

Without context, it's hard to understand what Joshua meant.

So here's the rest of the more solvent points of the thread.

From: FightStudent

I agree with Josh's method....having to deal with that kind of a consequence will motivate anyone to defend the choke better....but I think that people are misinterpreting what Josh is saying. He is not, at least I do not think, advocating regularly choking someone unconscious, but rather, bringing them close to it and occasionally choking them out because being choked out or even close to it is an unpleasant experience and anyone who is faced with the prospect of it would fight all the more to avoid being choked out and develop better defenses.

From: JoshuaResnick

FS hit the nail on he head.

i completely understand your objections to it.

in judo, at high levels, you will see it happen a lot more than you could believe though. i cant tell you how many times i saw it in japan and korea.

the reason it is done, and you might be able to argue with these facts medically, is to train people to fight no matter what. this is judo, the matte is right around the corner IF you have the willpower to not give in and not stop fighting.

in judo, the moment we are almost choked out and get matte then we have to get up and fight on our feet. how are you going to do that if you havent had to do it before?

i agree completely that it is one of the most cruel training tools in judo, that is why it isnt done until reaching the right level, but i can promise you that it goes a long way to help develop the person's focus and resistance to chokes as well as overall toughness and ability to fight no matter what.

27

So in that respect, I respectfully disagree with Matt. Judo is a really crazy sport where a majority of the time at the higher levels, the match can rest on a quarter second lack of concentration.

Also, I know this is a problem for a lot of people I train with, and myself included that the tap-out gives you an easy out when the match starts going against you. Stuck in a horribly painful crossbody? Tap out. Someone has you in Head and Arm and you just can't get out? Tap out. Someone's really bugging your face with the gi across your nose, but not actually choking you? Tap out.

Clarified as Josh did, I agree with him that for a place like SJSU who has a great number of olympic or near olympic trainers, the stakes are a bit higher. Also, it's important to understand that SJSU is far from just 'weekender's' Judo club. With the US kicking Judo out of their OTC's I'd expect that SJSU is gonna end up being the US' de-facto training center for judo.

Finally, like Joshua said: In judo, matte for a submission is just a few seconds away if you can just survive. If you make it look like the submission isn't going anywhere, they will stand you up.

28

"I know this is a problem for a lot of people I train with, and myself included that the tap-out gives you an easy out when the match starts going against you. Stuck in a horribly painful crossbody? Tap out. Someone has you in Head and Arm and you just can't get out? Tap out. Someone's really bugging your face with the gi across your nose, but not actually choking you? Tap out."

Kai, that is a VERY different thing.

If someone is uncomfortable, or pinned, then I don't know of any competitive BJJ athletes that would tap from that, or encourage their competitive students to do so. Remember there is no pin in BJJ. It's about submission.

However, if an arm, shoulder, foot, or knee is taken and there is no getting it back, and you refuse to tap until it hurts, then you have crossed that line between competitive training and counter-productive stupidity.

The athlete risks serious injruy which will now take them off the mat for an extended period of time, and adversly affect their performance. It's stupid, ruins bodies, and takes people out of the sport. There is no reason for it, beyond a really misguided understanding regarding what "tough" training actualy means.

Same holds true for a choke. . .yes, it's important to learn to relax, and understand how much time you have to escape. All BJJ'rs learn this important lesson in time.

But once the rear naked is fully locked on, and you realize their is no escape, not tapping, or not honoring a tap, has once again crossed the line that seperates intelligent-tough training, and absolute stupidity.

For clarity I should say that I have not read the Judo forum thread, and I am only responding to the subject as it's written in this thread.

29

well said matt

30

Matt:

If someone is uncomfortable, or pinned, then I don't know of any competitive BJJ athletes that would tap from that, or encourage their competitive students to do so. Remember there is no pin in BJJ. It's about submission.

Well in Judo there is a pin and you only have so many seconds to escape so you have to get yourself moving very quickly.

However, if an arm, shoulder, foot, or knee is taken and there is no getting it back, and you refuse to tap until it hurts, then you have crossed that line between competitive training and counter-productive stupidity.

Again, from what I understand of the training Joshua is speaking of, you don't hurt them, you make them uncomfortable enough to force them to take the escape. Also, you can sometimes intentionally leave an escape open for your partner.

This also goes with chokes. Also, as I others have noted, in judo if you just ride things out you can get out of things. Sure it is gamesmanship, but at the same time, SJSU is a club that's really for competition. So holding out on a near choke, or a Near armlock can get you out of it, where as in BJJ, you're still stuck there.

31

"in judo if you just ride things out you can get out of things. Sure it is gamesmanship. . .whereas in BJJ, you're still stuck there."

Kai, I honestly don't know what you are saying here?

Do you mean that Judoka don't have the same tight submission skills, so because it may be sloppy you can 'fight' out of it with gameness?

Or do you mean the ref will break it, so you just hold out and take the pain?

Regardless, the bottom line is that if it's locked on, it's locked on, whether it's Judo or BJJ. And taking the pain in training is really dumb. If it hurts the joint that is because the joint is being injured, which is obviously bad for the athlete.

Instead the athlete should be taught how to avoid such positions, and submissions. . .toughing out a submission is goofy, and will only kill your lifespan in this Art.

Perhaps I am not understanding what you are saying? If this is actualy the case then there would be no contradiction with what I just stated and the points being made by you.

As I noted, I didn't read the Judo thread. I am only responding to the points here.

32

'Or do you mean the ref will break it, so you just hold out and take the pain?'

The ref will stand you up if you're simply taking too long to submit someone. Even if a submission is locked in, especially chokes.

Also, again we are speaking about training... Scratches head

33

Kai, you would need to explain to me where we disagree.

Are you suggesting it's a good idea to hold out on tapping, even after a submission is locked on. . even after it starts to become painful, or you begin blacking out?

If not, where is the disagreement?

If so, see above.

www.straightblastgym.com

34

Matt:

Okay, good... Now I got where I'm missing out at exactly.

I think it's important for training people who are doing high level sportive Judo to work within the rules of the sport.

In other words, have them learn to scrap and gut their way through some things instead of that situation we've all seen where someone nearly has a submission on and the person who's about to submit gets their hand up and ready to tap.

So instead, make them work their way against close chokes and fight your way quickly out of pins.

In order to do this, you train accordingly: Bug people with chokes, not lock them down but make it uncomfortable in the choke but let them work out of it. Everyone who's grappled for any length of time knows how much to crank a choke to really put it on and how much you can put it on where it's uncomfortable but not gonna put them out.

If you got them in a pin, force them to work out of it, even if they don't want. This is where Joshua mentioned resorting even to some pinching and little crap to make them uncomfortable.

35

No disagreement with you there Kai.

But this is very different from risking potential injury to a joint, or choking someone completely out if they fail to tap.

Apples and oranges.

36

I personally came from the mindset of "never give up, no matter what". I'm sure you can imagine the horror stories I've faced...

Yes, people were very impressed with my toughness and pain tolerance, but being sidelined for several months due to my OWN stupid pride gave me a lot of time to think about how unproductive and dangerous (in the long-term) this kind of thinking really is.

The above point has already been discussed on this thread so I don't really need to add much about it. What I want to share instead is a recent training story regarding chokes and the possible dangers.

A couple of weeks ago I was grappling with a strong, tough guy who's close to my level, so our matches are always difficult. He was in my guard and I locked a guillotine on him. I had it sunk powerfully and there was no way for him to escape. He kept trying to fight it anyway. Eventually he raised his hand as if to tap but didn't tap right away, so I kept the pressure on.

He started to make choking sounds, but this isn't uncommon when trying to fight the choke so I continued to wait for the tap. Once he finally tapped out I immediately let go. He continued to choke and gasp for air. Everyone quickly realized something was very wrong. We asked him several times if he was ok, but he was unable to respond. He was clearly in agony, but we didn't know what the problem was.

We sat him up straight and his face began turning bluish. He was suffering badly and we weren't sure what to do. Remembering my CPR training, I laid him flat on the ground and raised his head, to clear his air passage. One of the guys was about to run and call 911 and I was about to perform CPR when suddenly he started taking in huge gulps of air. He was finally able to breathe again and his face started returning to its original colour. I gave him some water and monitored him for a while longer.

When he was eventually able to talk, he said his throat had been closed and he wasn't able to breathe in or out. I've heard of this sort of thing happening, but very rarely. He took a break, but was able to resume light grappling afterward and seemed fine. It was a very scary situation and I don't know what I would've done if he hadn't made it...

Matt has already laid out my point, so I'll repeat it here for reference because it really bears listening and understanding to:

"Being choked out risks potential injury. There is a small percentage of people which can go into seizure, and there is always potential for brain damage. It's not helpful technically, it doesn't make you any "tougher", and it serves no functional purpose."

And also from Matt:

"Same holds true for a choke. . .yes, it's important to learn to relax, and understand how much time you have to escape. All BJJ'rs learn this important lesson in time.

But once the rear naked is fully locked on, and you realize their is no escape, not tapping, or not honoring a tap, has once again crossed the line that seperates intelligent-tough training, and absolute stupidity."

These axioms are especially true for high-level grapplers and cocky guys. Believe me, I know tapping out "sucks" but not tapping out can suck WAY worse. Let's avoid becoming the next "horrible mishap".

Lautaro

37

in 1999 about 6 years ago when I was relatively new to bjj, I was not aware of the proper mentality while training and thought training hard meant going all out trying to tap the opponent and resist tapping every time I trained. This mentality led to 2 torn ligaments in each ankle, a popped elbow, and a slew of other injuries I am still working through today. I wish I had someone with the coaching mentality of Matt when I first began bjj.

38

Matt: I agree, I agree...

It's something I'm a bit into right now just because I've recently found myself tapping out entirely too early.

And as others said, you have to have some real trust in your partner to allow you to play that sort of game, it's just that in Sportive Judo it's so very important to tough things out because you will be rescued from the submission almost every time.

Hey, lots of us judoka's hate the rules in Judo, but we're here to win...

39

FB, I am ashamed to say I have not always been that Coach.

There was a time when BJJ was still fairly new, and MMA was just starting, that we did really-really stupid things. . .in terms of training.

Live in learn. It's from these experiences in the past, and what I have put my own body through, that I can say in confidence to people that there is never a valid reason for that kind of goofy training.

It's counter-productive on SO many levels.

There is a better way, and if we can point people towards it, based on our experiences, and help them avoid the same mistakes. . .then that is great reason for the god given gifts called speaking and writing.

Plus they help when ordering food!

40

Interesting thread!

I'm a BJJ noob (~6 months on and off depending on parents' travel and work schedule) and the week after the last West Coast Jiu Jitsu Tournament, the class was almost empty ... so we had semi-private lessons. The whole week was "no tap" sessions that twinkletoesCT mentioned above!

It wasn't the instructor choking us out or snapping our arms though. The expectation was to escape, execute the escapes we drilled, and by God, do your very, very best or we'll feel the 1000 kilos side mount where you can hardly breathe.

It made for more intense training sessions. Was it worth it for my level? In Judo shiai, absolutely! There's a good chance we could get stood up (I compete with the next age group where chokes are allowed) and Judo groundfighting is funny/weird/sucks that way. In BJJ, probably not, since I know he will have time to really sink it ... no chance of getting stood up. When I develop the sensitivity, body awareness in the future, it will help.

Hope this makes sense. I think I understand what Resnick was saying in his not so gentle way.