Hey Ogamy I just figured Im doing the same thing you are. Maybe thats why my Judo sucks so bad. I have to get my shit straight. When I'm doing the sanshou/shoot boxing thing I usualy stand orthodox. And go into harai/osoto like I was throwing a right cross and missed the guys head(throwing the reap with right leg), when doing the morote gary (cant do it in Judo for some strange reason)I shoot in whith my left leading. Maybe thats why my Sanshou sucks also.
Like I said , I really need to get this footwork thing straight. I hadnt noticed it until this thread came up.
thanks for making me think about this guys
Daniel
You are not gonna grab from that distance anyway so it doesn't matter if your right foot is back.Michael from my experience, the distance between striking and a standing clinch is so insignificant that it matters greatly that your transition is smooth into and out of each other. which is why switching feet will undoubtedly be problematic.I feel many of the traditional guys are mistaken about "range". the distance between me punching a guy and giving him an osoto.. about half a second. about one blink, about one shuffle step. boom. it's over. the distance is gapped. same with legs. never underestimate the speed and forward pressure of two guys to move toward each other into a clinch. it just happens.
Ogami. you are standing judo "right" but gripping judo "left" Yeah that would cause lots of frustration!
easy reminderfor traditional grip: you'll grab the lapel on the same side as your forward foot.
Ogami/BIC, in Judo/BJJ sparring, most of the grip fighting I've seen/experienced have been getting the sleeves vs. the lapel ... then I throw.
Because my first exposure to MA was Muay Thai, it has been left foot foward as a righty. This carried over to Judo, left foot slightly forward (a little more square) and getting a sleeve with my left hand ... Osoto, Tai otoshi, etc.
I don't understand the confusion of standing Judo right and gripping Judo left ... and why it's difficult. It feels natural in sparring.
Zulrik, you do what I do.
Really, the reason my judo sucks is I haven't practiced enough. Actually, one of the best things I do is grip fighting. But I wonder, maybe this stance weirdness helps my opponent see my tai otoshi & other throws coming a mile away. In the clinch/grips, I tend to be switching my feet back and forth, though, and standing a bit more square, so it's not consistently one or the other although the grip is almost always the same.
This carried over to Judo, left foot slightly forward (a little more square) and getting a sleeve with my left handyou are taking a left stance and a left grip. it should feel normal, this is how you've been standing for most of your experience in martial arts.Ogami is taking a right lead foot, but gripping like a left grip.
Wait a sec, Bull, it's left lead foot, also left hand, ala boxer's stance. Grab sleeve with left. Grab lapel with right.
ok. then you're fine.
carry on.
Wait a minute..
No I was right initially. you're screwed up bro. you either need to change your stance to right foot forward to match your grip ro change your grip to match your feet.
.
Yes you are both the wrong way around for judo. If you want to stand left forward and do judo then you grip the lapel with your left, not the sleve. This would be regarded a left handed grip in judo, and is the cause of my original problem.
In judo the throwing LEG has to be forward, this is important for the throws to work. Most people put their strong leg forward for this reason.
I think I'll change to southpaw striking and give up on kicking at all.
LOL! I think I now understand some of the confusion ... unorthodox in my case works. I kinda remember my dad and uncles chiding me about how my grips were wrong when I was 8 or so and how it wasn't efficient, blah, blah ... I was 8 and I also boxed and they didn't, so I felt I knew better than them :-)
Maybe I should work on that. I think I end up switching my feet after a while, anyway, but maybe I should pay more attention to that.
Hmmm...
Bull,
I agree with your point about 1/2 a sec between closing distance. I do think people are a little too concerned about which grip vs which foot.
Hmmm........just thinking about what I do now: I am right handed. I usually approach someone with my left foot forward. Once I have the grip I may transition to right foot forward to enable a throw. But I also frequently switch my feet around and step in circles which tends to put one foot forward or the other at different times. I cannot say that I maintain my right foot forward constantly.
Example: I like uchimata as my favorite throw thus with my right foot forward I am already "set" for the throw. However, sometimes instead of having my right foot forward, as we jockey around my left is actually forward and AS I PULL THEM I STEP WITH IN MY RIGHT FOOT SIMULTANEUOSLY into the correct position. Thus enabling my throw while starting from a left foot forward stance. I'll bet many of us do the same. I never really gave this any thought until just now.
What do you think?.........
Mike
Mike,
Ultimately the correct answer is "Whatever makes you comfortable".
Ex. look at the top athletes in any sport and rarely do they do things "exactly" by the book. ( ex- Roy Jones Jr.'s lack of defensive guard instead replaced by phenominal speed.)
But as a beginner it's very important to get in the habit of developing proper & fundamental basic structure, and that usually means doing things in a standardized way.
In your above example you mentioned that you approach, grip and then change feet to set up a throw. Obviously you're having at least moderate success with this method or else I could only presume you'd change it. "if it ain't broke don't fix it."
but your situation doesn't include striking, and I can't stress how much striking changes the standing clinch. From advancing toward and opponent, defensive clinching, offensive clinching and finally the actual application of the throw or takedown.
IMHO - this may the part of judo that truly became lost to us after the war, not neccesarily the advanced groundwork but the incorporation of striking and grappling.
Ironically I'm coming from a san shou background into judo. (and back into san shou very soon ) where entering the clinch is no longer "dangerous" but now the throwing is much more technical and the addition of groundwork following the throw. I'd love to hear from Brad Burrick ( a judo guy who made a transition to san shou) how he felt about the transition.
Bull,
yes I agree with you about a standardized method for a beginner. Although I feel the current discussion is kinda for the more advanced practitioners with experience in different arts and combining them ie: judo and kickboxing etc.
I dont always intentionaly change my feet to throw. It just depends on what position I'm in before I make the attempt. I like the right foot forward but lets say I tried to do a sasae and missed. From that position if I wanted to transition into an O-soto gari my right foot would be relatively back and my left would be leading before the attempt. I think you follow my point. Also, if I always stand one way, people get to
know my style but if I mix it up and switch stances or go for a left side attack (even while keeping right side grip) it tends to confuse (I hope) my opponent because they are not sure where I am going to come from. (Well, at least thats my plan. doesn't always work. Ha!)
I'm not sure about your concerns on striking for the clinch. I have done Muay Thai (recreationally) over the years and never thought it a concern. I'm trying to see your point. If you could elaborate I would appreciate it.
thanks!
Mike
ttt for Bad Brad as well.
I have done Muay Thai (recreationally) over the years and never thought it a concern. I'm trying to see your point. If you could elaborate I would appreciate it.I'll try to elaborate. You can do muay thai and think you know how to clinch. you can do judo or wrestling and thing you know how to clinch and throw. But until you've tried san shou/mma you'll never really be understand how to put it all together. The neck clinch in muay thai is very simple and serves it's purpose for attacks with the knees, but muay thai lacks the throwing skill set and the base that grapplers have. (I'm fully aware of muay thai's ability to use a "steering wheel" neck throw) same with the grapplers, they think you can clinch, but when you're trying to gap and grab and you're eating punches.. you try to clinch and an uppercut comes thru into your jaw, a knee comes into your gut.. it changes the dynamics quickly. this is why a good foundation in stance is so important. It is the root of movement, action & reaction.
Bull is correct (Ouch that hurt!)
I'm having a lot of problems with this right now. I always seem to end up in one of two places. I'll be in full Muay Thai mode and I end up playing the bang-bang game, or I'm in full SC mode looking for entries and grips. It's very either/or for me.
We do have some good drills we're working on right now using Thai Pads and ending the combo with throw. Hopefully raw repetition will help my mind integrate the two.
I'll be in full Muay Thai mode and I end up playing the bang-bang game, or I'm in full SC mode looking for entries and grips. It's very either/or for me.You are not alone WD. Many people who "cross train" do this. We fall victim to the rules of each combat sport. as you mentioned drilling the transitons from a free standing beginning thru to a grappling conclusion (or how to get back out of a grappling situation with striking) will help you greatly. We fight like we train.. How many times have we heard this?
I very rarely if ever get to train in the full mma mode. Sometimes doing bang-bang we clinch and tumble a bit but then start over.