Bull is correct (Ouch that hurt!) -Feel that sting big boy, huh? That's pride, fuckingwit' ya, see? You gotta fight through that shit. - Butch (Pulp Fiction)Don't worry you'll get used to it. :-D
lol
Bull, Ok I think I see what you are saying.
I don't like the two hand behind the neck clinch in Muay Thai. Never really do it. I just do a standard over/under or whatever. You can knee from that position and also do a throw if you want. So I don't see a real problem.
I think your other point about taking punches (uppercut) was probably relating to closing the gap. Correct? If so, yes, it is risky but learning basic boxing hands (as is done in Muay Thai)allows you to block, duck, slip, or the like and enter into a clinch. One of the most basic boxing techniques every beginner is taught is that if you are getting hit or overwhelmed then clinch your opponent to stop the attack. Nearly every boxing match has multiple clinches. (Remember, we are assuming that the practitioners DO crosstrain with striking. That is the question - combining techniques of multiple arts).
Now if you don't crosstrain striking defense than yes you are at more of a risk for getting hit as you move in and it could put you down! However, as I think most of us agree on, the advantadge generally still goes to the grappler because unless he is knocked out, he will likely move in and go for the takedown. I'm not saying all the time Bull. Just most of the time. But thats old news here thanks to the Gracies.
I don't know anything about San Shou. Wish I could comment but can't. But it sounds like a good thing to improve your transitions and if so there is nothing wrong with that!! Of course, moving in to clinch against a skilled striker is always gonna be much more risky than the average knucklehead. For MMA I see this as a major concern but for the street if you are skilled at both Judo and Muay Thai, I don't think you're gonna have much of a problem worrying about stances. We probably agree on that.
Bull, I've read your posts and you seem a credible and realistic "No bull" kind of person (hehe had to say that) so I give your opinion more weight than many.
Thanks
Mike
"I don't like the two hand behind the neck clinch in Muay Thai."-I do! :-D It's a great offensive clinch for striking in a mma/combat scanario (just ask V. Silva) but it's not the clinch you want for throwing. Use it as a "I'll take what he give me approach" and if you tie up and get the inside neck... tee off on him and "soften him up" lol. transition to a better throwing clinch or just get back out to free standing again. (maybe you need to run away from this guy!- self defense scenario)"I just do a standard over/under or whatever."-Problem with O/U is that it is a neutral clinch. He also has an o/u. - Act fast. either hit him with your throw or tranfer to a more dominant clinch."I think your other point about taking punches (uppercut) was probably relating to closing the gap. Correct? If so, yes, it is risky but learning basic boxing hands (as is done in Muay Thai)allows you to block, duck, slip, or the like and enter into a clinch. One of the most basic boxing techniques every beginner is taught is that if you are getting hit or overwhelmed then clinch your opponent to stop the attack. Nearly every boxing match has multiple clinches. (Remember, we are assuming that the practitioners DO crosstrain with striking. That is the question - combining techniques of multiple arts)."You bring up some excellent points. What I meant, (My apologies if I'm not the most articulate guy.) is that when you train in two seperate styles your mind will shift between the rules in which you'r applying them. Example if your aim is to put someone on the ground using judo, you'll more than likely forget about striking and try to close the gap and grab clothing or a "body hook". A fist smashing you in the head is going to come as a big suprise. Same thing with striking. btw you gave a great example of forward pressure that happens when two bodies are in close proximity. boxers clinch up. - but notice how they clinch. there is never a thought in their minds to protect vs. the throw or knees because it's not a thought in their sport rules. their base is narrow and their are perfectly tall. Hope that makes sense.. "the advantadge generally still goes to the grappler because unless he is knocked out, he will likely move in and go for the takedown."yep. but I'd take the chance to nail a guy cleanly and a good sprawl defense vs. his dazed or sloppy takedown attempt anyday. worse case scenario - we both go to the ground.. fine by me. "I don't know anything about San Shou."My webpage (needs tons of updating)But the links are good.IMHO - it is the best training for the standup aspect of MMA. (free standing and standup clinch)"For MMA I see this as a major concern but for the street if you are skilled at both Judo and Muay Thai, I don't think you're gonna have much of a problem worrying about stances. We probably agree on that."Never underestimate someone Michael. The man on the street is an unknown and I'm not a gambling man. I want the odds to always be in my favor. Was it Yogi Barra who said "The harder I practice the luckier I get." ? What if you're the one who has had too much to drink, what if you slip on a curb, a stair, your back is on a wall? too many variables.. I'd approach everyone like they were better than me."Bull, I've read your posts and you seem a credible and realistic "No bull" kind of person (hehe had to say that) so I give your opinion more weight than many. Thanks "No, Thank you. I'm just giving my opinion based on what I've learned and what I think is a good, logical approach. To think that anyone values my opinion if very flattering and maybe a little silly. :-) I enjoy your posts Mike. Infomative and sensible approach.-Bill Easlick
Bull,
I agree on the "take what you can" approach as far as clinching. I also agree that the over and under is a neutral clinch - I'm hoping that the other guy can't grapple! But as you said, never underestimate which I also agree with!
"I'd approach everyone like they were better than me." - Perfectly said and a mindset I try to keep!
I see your point on crosstraining 2 different styles and having to choose bewteen the two possibly causing a problem. It brings to mind an incident that happened to me a few years ago. I had been doing judo but at a real beginner stage. I also had been doing Muay Thai for the same length of time but was a bit more ahead in it than I was in judo (I guess it has a shorter learning curve as I find the techniques simpler than judo). I had learned how to box a few years before but was not focusing on boxing at all at the time. So when some knucklehead came at me I kicked him and then went for throwing knees to his head. He was still standing (although defenseless and covering himself up) and then I switched to a throw and took him down and ended it. Because Muay Thai had been in my forefront of training I immediately went for that first, then switched to judo when I felt progress slowing - it didn't even occur to me to punch him while he was standing because I guess my mind wasn't there since I was not at all concentrating on boxing.
This made me think. This was obviously not a lack of skill, but rather a mental thing. So now I feel you must keep up on other arts that you crosstrain in to "remain sharp". In other words, even if you are not currently serious about striking but learned it in the past, you must at least practice it to some degree to keep the muscle memory and to keep it part of your relexes. Also it must be "on your mind" too. It can be as simple as doing some heavy bag work 1 or 2 times a week to keep your mind there.
If you keep your mind there and keep your muscle memory sharp, then I feel you will be much easier able to transition between different modes. As a matter of opinion, as you said earlier "I'll take what he gives me approach" (as far as choosing my response whether striking or grappling) would seem to apply here also. Just on a broader scale.
Thanks for your web page. I'm gonna check it out now!
Mike =)
This is how I do it. I am a mostly right handed judoka, and my initial stance will depend on the strong side of my opponent.
If they are a righty, then I come out with left side forward. That way, I am not handing them my right sleeve to control, but their right hand is more available to me. If they are lefty, then I switch to a right hand stance and proceed with the kenka yotsu dance. It is easy to switch stance as you control their sleeve. Plus I have a decent left sode and seoi, so I can go left if I need to.
If you are standing left foot forward, but had a right hand sleeve and lapel grip, then that is not very stable, you need to switch.
Ben R.
Ben, thats how you do it in a judo match. What about when striking is involved?
BIC and Michael,
Quote: "I also agree that the over and under is a neutral clinch "
Only if you are both ambidexterous, otherwise its better for one than the other.
"otherwise its better for one than the other."2 things.1.) You'd better be able to do throws on each side. "A one-winged bird only flies in circles." esp a good hip throw and your ashi waza.2.) The better clincher will win the clinch. Nobody ever won a clinch because "he got the side he wanted." No, he won because he got a clinch and acted on it. If you don't like your clinch then it's up to you to fix it. the o/u clinch itself is about as "neutral" as you can get with 2 clashing, grappling, striking human bodies comming at each other.
Yes of course its important to be able to throw both sides, but nearly everyone has a favourite, hence this thread and the importance of deciding which way round to stand.
Ben, thats how you do it in a judo match. What about when striking is involved? "
Good question, it looks like folks with more experience at striking than me have given good answers.
I'd suggest that if striking is involved heavily, you would want to focus on the best stance for how YOU want to fight and the exact type of fight you intend to engage in.
Then, integrate the clinching to work well with your striking. If you are more comfortable in a righty boxing stance, then learn the Judo/wrestling or whatever clinch work works best from that stance.
Ben R.
ttt for Perry H
*Problem with O/U is that it is a neutral clinch. He also has an o/u. - Act fast. either hit him with your throw or tranfer to a more dominant clinch.
Thats complete guff. everyone is sided.
You'd be an idiot if you didn't train throws on each side, from any and every tie up, esp. the over under.