Do you guys know of any good matches between a very good judo guy against a very good wrestler? Who usually wins? Can you think of any good good mma fights with Judo vs Wrestling. Diego Sanchez fought karo Parysian, that was a classic Judo vs Wrestling matchup. What art would you say is better?
neverquit - What art would you say is better?You realize you posted this in the judo/sambo forum, right? Haha! ;)
In all honesty, it comes down to the venue/rules of ____ matchup and the experience/attributes of the individual grapplers as well as their goals in training(ie: sport, mma, self-defense). Meaning, in world class competition, the depth of talent is such that if you throw a judoka who's used to gi into wrestling and a wrestler who's not used to the gi into judo, they'll most likely lose more than they win simply because of the difference the gi makes, the rules, as well as the overall level of competition. Nevertheless, you'd be surprised at the number of judoka who wrestled and the number of wrestlers with judo backgrounds, so it's actually not as cut and dry a question as you might think.
Can't think of too many other pure judo vs. wrestling mma fights off hand, except for maybe the Hidehiko Yoshida vs. Rulon Gardner(winner) fight that I remember being a pretty good snooze fest. I think Josh Barnett tapped Pawel Nastula in their fight a few years back, if you want to call that a cacc vs. judo fight. Other than that I'm drawing a blank.
In grappling there's been some interesting matchups and history re: people like Maeda, the 4 Guardians , Ad Santel, Ichiro Hatta, etc, but we're talking about stuff from 80-100yrs ago, so it's probably not much help. More modern examples I can think of would be a matchup with Bill Simpson(winner) vs. Frank Trigg from the early 90s and a sparring session with Randy Couture and Satoshi Ishii. Both are, or used to be on youtube.
As far as which is better, again it comes down to the individual athlete and their goals. For mma and self-defense, though, I'd say wrestling is the most applicable due to the tie-ups generally being tighter and more controlling(ie: no space to get punched) because they don't rely on the gi/clothing. But other than that we're essentially talking about arts/styles that are more similar than they are different, because they're each aim to accomplish the same thing using the same techniques. Meaning, uniforms aside, an arm throw is basically the same whether you call it ippon seoi-nage or a flying mare, a pin is basically the same whether you call it kesa-gatame or a head & arm, an arm/shoulder lock is basically the same whether you call it ude-garami or a double wrist lock, etc, etc. So I think the best advice I or anyone else can give a person is to pick the art/style that appeals to them most and find the very best people available to train with. Everything else is just personal bias and trash-talking.
Been done to death! Both have pros and cons!
I watched the Sanchez vs Parysan match and the throws Sanchez took were bone crushing especially his neck. Would of knocked out most others. The fairest answer to your question is neither dominates in the other's game. The rules/scoring/penalties are actually opposite of each other. Neither is threat to each other at the world class level. Just like BJJ world class is not a threat to Judo at the world class level for the same reasons. Yet all are called world class grapplers. Like comparing Rugby to Professional football.
Freestyle/collegiate wrestler Frank Trigg fought a judo guy in a straight grappling match:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTm94LbLNQE<br /><br />
Give sambo a go. Mix of both
"Bill Simpson(winner) vs. Frank Trigg "
Who is Bill Simpson? Regardless, this is not a straight judo vs wrestling match.
"Freestyle/collegiate wrestler Frank Trigg fought a judo guy in a straight grappling match"
Trigg was/is a black belt in judo as well. In fact, Trigg's judo coach, pat burress, is the one who got Trigg into MMA. This is straight from the horse's mouth (Trigg). We had him out for a seminar several years ago. He is an excellent coach by the way.
Trigg got his judo bb a long time after that match took place.
"Trigg got his judo bb a long time after that match took place."
To which match are you referring?
"To which match are you referring?"
The match that kumikata posted between Trigg and Bill Simpson.
That event was in 1995--same year Trigg started training with Burris. He may have had some judo training at the time of the match, but if he did, it wasn't much.
Trigg took his judo training seriously and his promotion to black belt wasn't a batsugun promotion--it took him several years of dedicated training to achieve it. He used to post on the RAW forum here back in the day and would occasionally talk about his judo training. I don't think he was awarded shodan until the late 90s, maybe even around the early 2000s. I believe he is currently ranked as a 2nd dan.
"The match that kumikata posted between Trigg and Bill Simpson."
oh, ok, thanks.
"Trigg took his judo training seriously and his promotion to black belt wasn't a batsugun promotion--it took him several years of dedicated training to achieve it."
Yeah, he spoke VERY highly of Pat and loved to talk about the judo training he did. I don't know when it was awarded, but any belt from Pat is definitely earned.