karl gotch

Well I didn't really appreciate De Braco's b*tchy tone either but honestly
I could care less in the big scheme of things. I mean we are trying to
come to some conclusions here about catch wrestling, right?

Lol, I've been through worse things and if Scuffler is right about De
Braco's knowledge, I'd much rather have him help us resurrect catch
than be just another speed bump. Besides, he seems to have come
around and has even made me laugh on this thread (e.g., "you're just
jealous of my portman-esque wife")

I hope everyone digs in and begins to come to their own
conclusions as long as they are well reasoned and backed with
evidence and expert testimony. What I resent (besides the hyperbole
and flimflam) is the knee-jerk emotionalism, hostility, psychologizing
of motives, and laziness I see when some people have their bubbles
burst by a new piece of information. All I ask is for people to just look
into things and ask around instead of calling names :(

I think transparency and openness is our ally here. Kayfabe has
prevented it for years.

For an organism to survive/thrive it has to adapt to a
dynamic reality (or else be selected out of the gene pool, biologically
speaking). Lies, exaggerations, "kayfabe" stand in direct opposition to
reality.

Phony pro-wrestling needs to be clearly differentiated from
competitive sport catch. Lou reigned atop the phony pro-wrestling
world for decades, but he could still wrestle.

Karl, an Olympian and a man that travelled the world pursuing
wrestling knowledge simply has more credibility as a REAL grappler,
kayfabe aside.

I named my organization "Scientific" Wrestling for a reason; I wanted to
apply the principles of science to grappling (and catch in particular).
Reason, evidence, testing, proof, etc.

Ok enough of the soapbox (I feel like this is one of those way too long
passages from Atlas Shrugged or something, lol). Gotta go to the gym!

I asked Karl about Thesz today, he said Thesz WOULD NOT shoot with him. He tried, but no go.

I honestly don't know about Thesz. His stance is really bad and his holds weren't exceptional, but he was fast and played alot of handball.

Today Karl said to look at guys like John Pesek and Frank Wolfe, they were much better than Tragos and Thesz.

It's cool man .I was just fooling around with him ,anyhow!

That was Gene's opinion, and he still gives the nod to Karl.

Dick Cardinal and Karl Gotch didn't think much of his shooting skills. He
was by far the biggest draw in pro-wrestling for the majority of the 20th
century though, no disputing that!

*shrugs

I see you have a lot of time on your hands on a Saturday night Parlati, lol.
Impressive typing skills!

"Dick Cardinal and Karl Gotch didn't think much of his shooting skills. He was by far the biggest draw in"

I love the fact out of this whole debate it's been stated like 4 times and overlooked the fact that Thesz Hooked Karl in there "work" turned "shoot" match. say what you want about Thesz fact remains Karl tryed to Pulls Lou's card and found out quickly that Lou is and was always a rough and ready Shooter.

By the way this whole thing about Thesz kind of reminds me of the way Hack ran his mouth off after Frank Gotch passed away...sour grapes maybe???

ah, the mythical "shoot" raises its ugly head again

a fake match in which an accidental injury to Thesz results in them mutally agreeing to end the match quickly so Gotch gives Thesz his signature move and they go on with their lives... only CACC fans would make much of this?

"ah, the mythical "shoot" raises its ugly head again"

interestling... Lou said he felt he was indanger and after it was over he was upset with himself because he let his guard down( thus his ribs was broke) because at that time he trusted Karl and he assumed that Karl would not shoot on him.

"Dick Cardinal and Karl Gotch didn't think much of his shooting skills. He was by far the biggest draw in"

Could the former have anything to do with the latter?

With all due respect to Mr Thesz, lord rest his soul, he told several versions of the story during his life time... at least two on the defunct Tony C forum that was here even!

They were doing a typical (ie FAKE) match and after a totally scripted move, he messed up his rib. He told Gotch and they decided to end the match quickly so they set up the finish...

Not a shoot, not relevant...

Ikfmdc i had to do some digging up on this so if you can please take the time to read this... what Lou said about the shoot between him and Karl

It's Karl you asked about, though, and I saved him for last, because that relationship was an especially disappointing one for Lou. It's true that there was genuine heat between them; it came out when we were writing the book and I noticed that Lou had cut Karl's name from the section in the first draft where he listed some of the competitive wrestlers who were around in the '50s and early '60s. I asked him why, and he said he'd called Karl to ask for some general biographical information. He said Karl declined, saying that he was writing a book of his own and wasn't inclined to help out. Lou then said that was typical of Karl and went off on what amounted (for Lou, anyway) to a rant: He said Karl was always full of himself and very difficult to deal with; he also said, for the first of what would be many times, that Karl blew his chance at being a major star in this country by refusing to listen to others (namely Lou) about how to best handle himself. Lou had enormous respect for Karl as a wrestler, but he didn't care for the individual; he said Karl was arrogant and stubborn and, ultimately, in the sense of understanding wrestling as a business, a poor businessman.

I knew absolutely nothing about the match where Lou suffered the broken ribs until long after we'd finished the book. I was visiting Lou in Norfolk, and he was talking about the happiest time of his career (it was during the earliest years, in St. Louis, when he had the training camp on the Merrimac River and the boys were hanging out there, wrestling competitively during the day and partying at night). I asked him, what then was the lowest point? He said, without hesitation, it was the time he spent recovering from the broken ribs he'd suffered in that match with Karl. I'd never heard the story, so I later wrote it down as best I could recall, figuring that we might yet do another rewrite and could use the story then. What Lou said, in part, was this: "I still had the resort in Tucson at the time, so I crawled back there and holed up in my room. I slept on a mattress on the floor and had food sent in from the kitchen; I saw nobody, because I didn't want to be around people, and I didn't want anyone to see me in that condition. Broken ribs are extremely painful, and I was a long time healing. Mike DiBiase came around a couple of times just to check on me, but that was it in terms of companionship."

Mostly, Lou said, he was pissed at himself for "going to sleep" (Lou's words) that night against Karl. He always was alert to the possibility of a doublecross, but he trusted Karl enough, once they'd started working, to lower his guard. When Karl blocked him, it hit Lou immediately that something was up, and he ended things immediately. "I made him howl," is how Lou put it.

So yes, Lou believed it was an attempted doublecross. And he was mad at himself for almost allowing it to happen. He once said to me, long after that initial conversation, that Karl was an excellent choice to do it, because he was a good wrestler and probably could have pulled it off if Lou hadn't been so quick to snatch him and end the match.

I've never met Karl, and never even tried, in large part because I was aware of the heat between the two men and figured he wouldn't welcome my inquiries. Lou became one of my closest friends, and I miss him terribly, but I'm not an apologist for him; I met too many people in the wrestling business who were happy to talk about the "other side" of Lou, and I've heard enough stories to be satisfied that some of those tales are true, so I'm sure Karl could say some illuminating and unkind things about Lou. In the final analysis, though, I believe that the friction between the two stems from personal pride in their wrestling abilities. Lou was a lot like Ed Lewis in that he was very grudging with praise for the guys who could really go, and Karl was definitely in that group.

I got this off Wrestling classics.

I think I was pretty plain in what I said, it wasn't a shoot in any way. They were doing a scripted match, which went wrong when Lou got injured, and so they agreed to end it rather quickly, which looked to the audience rather strange.

Lou Thesz was a human being, and I'm not direspecting him in any way, but the reality is that he told the above story at least once publicly, then also told the story about how it was supposed to be a shoot... Gotch remained consistent, noting that the "star" was already scheduled to "win" and so it wasn't an issue at all, when the injury happened they just cut it short

The fact that these men were in the "business" of pro wrestling has as much to do with various "versions" as the fact that both men had egos. Pro wrestling is, was and shall be always FAKE and revolve around stuff lke "heat" and story lines... the fact is, YES, Lou thesz was very good at that "business" and understood the power of it perhaps much better than Gotch.

But Thesz was also jealous of the god like status that Gotch achieved in japan

"But Thesz was also jealous of the god like status that Gotch achieved in japan."

Oh, please. Thesz was a much bigger star in Japan. Even into the 1990s, the UWFI paid Lou a lot of money to put his old championship belt on their champ because it added so much legitimacy to what they were doing.

those was his words...::sighs:: it's pointless talking to Gotch fanboys.

Dear lord, belive what you want... obviously you already do... taking interviews off pro wrestling sites isn't exactly like citing a historical document.

I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but Thesz told different stories depending upon the audience and the time period... most of his anti Gotch comments came about after his association with a certain "hooker"...

The UWF brought in Thesz after Gotch left, but Gotch remains a figure of mythic proportions in Japan, but again, believe what you want

Inside the business, Gotch was well respected in Japan as a trainer.

To the public, Gotch definitely was a star, certainly a bigger star in Japan than he was anywhere else. But he was not on the level of Thesz.

mark of the wolf, is that a quote by kit bauman?

I notice when it comes down to catch there will always be two groups.

Wicks, Cardinal, Gotch.

and

Thesz, Cecchine.

For some reason people have to choose a side and it always errupts in some verbal spat. As of now there is a neutral group.

The Billy Robinson group. As of now when any of you guys nut ride Thesz or Gotch I'm going to nut ride Billy Robinson.

Robinson rulz............

I had already answered Robinson on a couple of old threads when the question of best living oldtime catch guy had come up. Welcome to the club NCar!

On a serious note: I have seen claims that the following really weren't very skilled. These claims were made by folks who called themselves wrestling historians. Their list of non-wrestlers included but is not limited to:

Ed Lewis

Frank Gotch

Tom Jenkins

Lou thesz

Karl Gotch

Jim Londos

Ray Steele

George Hackenschmidt

Both Zbyszko's

Ed Don George

Henry Deglane

There were others, I'm just going off top of my head. My guess is that they were all pretty damn good in their own right and unless they had a series of shoots against one another, which they didn't, then we will never really know who could have beaten who.

My opinion.

For those keeping score:

Victor Parlati, self appointed catch wrestling instructor, claims to have studied with Tony C but refuses to say when and for how long.

Come on Victor, why can't you answer that simple question? Who certified you to teach catch? Based upon what? YOu claim to have studied with Tony, but did you just study his tapes or study in person? If you studied in person, for how long?

If you are teaching catch wrestling, why don't any of your students compete?

YOu can answer any or all of the above questions... but I won't hold my breath