Wasa-B - "The Japanese fighters as I understand fought is a small stadium against underweight fighters. They didn't fight lumpinee champions in lumpinee."
Source?
Source= Wishful thinking.
It was lumpinee, and if not reigning champions, at least high ranking guys.
It was a prestigeful fight, after the thais had made the initial challenge. Does anyone think they would then go "lets give the japanese a fighting chance and let some of our worst guys represent us". The thais changed fight name after the event (not uncommon for fighters that has lost face to do, back then, I am given to undedrstand).
and Tadashi Nakamura (Kyokushin) KO'd Tan Charan (Muay Thai) via kick
(I haven't been able to find video of this fight - if someone can help, it sure would be appreciated)
I love Kyukoshin, I think its a great art.
There is a whole bunch of BS around what they achieved though. Fighting black kings pretty much documents this lol. China's best kung fu fighters. Thailands best kick boxer etc.
The Japanese fighters as I understand fought is a small stadium against underweight fighters. They didn't fight lumpinee champions in lumpinee.
Don't get me wrong, its a very strong its not a criticism of the art itself, rather the marketing machine. With due respect to Mas Oyama, watching the videos of his feats nowadays put them more into light.
hey, I'd just like to clear a couple of things up
as my SN implies, I am a BB in Kyokushin; I was also awarded an instructorship in Muay Thai by a Thai veteran of Rajadamnerm, so I have a great affinity and respect for this art and sport
but history is history
the matches in question took place at Lumpinee Stadium on February 17, 1964. the Thai fighters that fought the Karateka that night were reportedly ranked, but not champions. after their losses, there were those that contended that they were unranked
as far as the Thais being "underweight fighters," watch the videos I posted links to. the Japanese and Thai fighters appear to be very close in size/weight, and the Thais seemed to be quite skilled (I believe the videos also place those fights at Lumpinee)
as for 'Fighting Black Kings,' I'll give you that one. propaganda/marketing - but still kinda cool in a campy sort of way
Cool as hell, marketing or not. The pre/post Internet martial arts era is really different, they really got away with a lot. The source is Mas Oyama, he's never lied about anything...
Kyokoshin is really awesome. Anybody who thinks the Thais would let them walk into their #1 stadium and walk out beating their Thai champions has never been to Thailand. Let alone walk into Lumpinee and fight on their shows. The stories I've heard except this one was it was Thai champions in a small show.
That's right regarding Dale, but he was Thai trained not full contact karate. What ever happened to him? He was a bad motherfucker!
and Tadashi Nakamura (Kyokushin) KO'd Tan Charan (Muay Thai) via kick
(I haven't been able to find video of this fight - if someone can help, it sure would be appreciated)
I love Kyukoshin, I think its a great art.
There is a whole bunch of BS around what they achieved though. Fighting black kings pretty much documents this lol. China's best kung fu fighters. Thailands best kick boxer etc.
The Japanese fighters as I understand fought is a small stadium against underweight fighters. They didn't fight lumpinee champions in lumpinee.
Don't get me wrong, its a very strong its not a criticism of the art itself, rather the marketing machine. With due respect to Mas Oyama, watching the videos of his feats nowadays put them more into light.
hey, I'd just like to clear a couple of things up
as my SN implies, I am a BB in Kyokushin; I was also awarded an instructorship in Muay Thai by a Thai veteran of Rajadamnerm, so I have a great affinity and respect for this art and sport
but history is history
the matches in question took place at Lumpinee Stadium on February 17, 1964. the Thai fighters that fought the Karateka that night were reportedly ranked, but not champions. after their losses, there were those that contended that they were unranked
as far as the Thais being "underweight fighters," watch the videos I posted links to. the Japanese and Thai fighters appear to be very close in size/weight, and the Thais seemed to be quite skilled (I believe the videos also place those fights at Lumpinee)
as for 'Fighting Black Kings,' I'll give you that one. propaganda/marketing - but still kinda cool in a campy sort of way
Oyama had that stadium built to look exactly like Lumpinee by Australian contractors. I shiver to think how far the conspiracy goes
Liam VT1 _ LEMon - Cool as hell, marketing or not. The pre/post Internet martial arts era is really different, they really got away with a lot. The source is Mas Oyama, he's never lied about anything...
Kyokoshin is really awesome. Anybody who thinks the Thais would let them walk into their #1 stadium and walk out beating their Thai champions has never been to Thailand. Let alone walk into Lumpinee and fight on their shows. The stories I've heard except this one was it was Thai champions in a small show.
That's right regarding Dale, but he was Thai trained not full contact karate. What ever happened to him? He was a bad motherfucker!
Dude, bottom line is that you made some pretty crazy accusations about the fight not even taking place in Lumpinee. How far did you think that would get without someone refuting it with detail?
And why would you say the Thais were undersized when the dam videos are out there showing what their sizes were compared to the Japanese guys?
oh, one more thing, about the date of tjhe kyokushin vs muay thai event.
You often see 3 different dates. 1962,1963 and 1964.
The original challenge was made by the thais in 1962 (one date seen). The event was SUPPOSED to be held in late 1963 (another date seen), but once the japanese was on site in thailand it was repetedly delayed, dragging on for months (eventually forcing one of the japanese to go back home, and Kurosaki, who was really there as coach as he was too old to be a top fighter, took his place as the third fighter) until it finaly happened in february 1964 (another date often seen).
People often confuse the years, and you can see any of those years/dates being mentioned as the date of the "kyokushin vs muay thai challenge".
Akio Fujihira (later successful kickboxer under the fight-name Noboru Osawa) won by second rnd punch KO, Tadashi Nakamura won by first rnd kick KO, Kenji Kurosaki lost by TKO after a cut from an elbow (he still claims that was a bs judgement by the thais to save face after their other fighters had been KOd, but after seeing the vid I think it was good elbow and if it didnt cause a full KO, it was atleast a solid TKO -cut or not).
Liam VT1 _ LEMon - lol so Mas Oyama, the marketing machine, says it was Thai champs in Lumpinee and it's so?
I dunno, another claimed it was in Lumpinee with a date although acknowledges that they may not have been Lumpinee champs but ranked.
The undersized thing is the easiest thing to debunk as we've seen the videos and they look pretty close in size.
You would think the venue would be easy to confirm but the footage is so drainy, that wouldnt be the way to confirm it i dont think. But you dont really seem to offer and proof, details or proof where others are at least offering some of it, at least more than you. If you wanna make a claim, prove it.
Actually, make that 2 others on this thread are backing up that it did take in Lumpinee. Are they just drinking the Oyama kool aid? Did Oyama have a replica stadium built in a movie studio?
Liam VT1 _ LEMon - Bear in mind the Americans wouldn't fight full Thai rules, they beat a bunch of Thais in kickboxing rules with no clinch and knees...never mind elbows. There is a great vid out there of Benny the Jet fighting a Thai with clinch...well his wife is crying in the audience. They called it a no contest.
I felt a bit sorry for the American stars, Don the Dragon had a similar experience too, until I saw all the poor underweight Thais the Americans were bringing in to let people like Benny beat up under kickboxing rules. Until MMA came along, Thai rules were the Wild West of combat...people talked about it, people fought washed up small Thais but no one except the Dutch stars actually tried their hand at it legitimately
Toshio Fujiwara was a Kyokushin Karate fighter turned Kickboxer who competed in Muay Thai at the highest levels. He was coached by Kenji Kurosawa, the Karate fighter that lost in the 1964 matches in Thailand.
On March 18, 1978, Fujiwara became the first non-Thai to win a Muay Thai Championship. He defeated Mongsawan Ruk Changmai to become the Lightweight Champion of Rajadamnerm Stadium by Knockout in Round 4 (via punches).
Video of Fujiwara vs. Mongsawan Ruk Changmai for Rajadamnerm Championship
Later that same year (October 30), Fujiwara avenged an earlier decision loss to the new Rajadamnerm Champion, Sepree Kiatsompop, by Knockout in Round 7 (via punches) of a World Championship Kickboxing title fight. This was the finale of a championship series. I believe the video you saw of Benny Urquidez being pummeled by knees was in the clinch of Kiatsompop during the semi-finals held earlier (I saw the same video, although it looked like the fight was called a loss for Urquidez - one his record did not later reflect).
Video of Fujiwara vs. Sepree Kiatsompop for World title
Liam VT1 _ LEMon - Bear in mind the Americans wouldn't fight full Thai rules, they beat a bunch of Thais in kickboxing rules with no clinch and knees...never mind elbows. There is a great vid out there of Benny the Jet fighting a Thai with clinch...well his wife is crying in the audience. They called it a no contest.
I felt a bit sorry for the American stars, Don the Dragon had a similar experience too, until I saw all the poor underweight Thais the Americans were bringing in to let people like Benny beat up under kickboxing rules. Until MMA came along, Thai rules were the Wild West of combat...people talked about it, people fought washed up small Thais but no one except the Dutch stars actually tried their hand at it legitimately
<br />
<span class="User-162269" id="userPost52557844">Toshio Fujiwara was a Kyokushin Karate fighter turned Kickboxer who competed in Muay Thai at the highest levels. He was coached by Kenji Kurosawa, the Karate fighter that lost in the 1964 matches in Thailand.<br />
<br />
On March 18, 1978, Fujiwara became the first non-Thai to win a Muay Thai Championship. He defeated Mongsawan Ruk Changmai to become the Lightweight Champion of Rajadamnerm Stadium by Knockout in Round 4 (via punches).<br />
<br />
Video of Fujiwara vs. Mongsawan Ruk Changmai for Rajadamnerm Championship<br />
<br />
http://youtu.be/iM2IpOmUA2Y<br />
<br />
<br />
Later that same year (October 30), Fujiwara avenged an earlier decision loss to the new Rajadamnerm Champion, Sepree Kiatsompop, by Knockout in Round 7 (via punches) of a World Championship Kickboxing title fight. This was the finale of a championship series. I believe the video you saw of Benny Urquidez being pummeled by knees was in the clinch of Kiatsompop during the semi-finals held earlier (I saw the same video, although it looked like the fight was called a loss for Urquidez - one his record did not later reflect).<br />
<br />
Video of Fujiwara vs. Sepree Kiatsompop for World title<br />
<br />
http://youtu.be/NoBiueeRpiI</span><br />
<br />
</blockquote>
Correction. Toshio Fujiwara was never a kyokushin practitioner. He was a shitoryu (or shorinryu -I forget) practitioner (and not a competitor at that). He did however train japanese kickboxing under Kenji Kursaki, Kyokushin legend and one of the 1964 muay thai vs kyokushin challenge.
