Stranglehold26 - wanted to get the UG's thoughts on loyalty when it comes to training.
What do you think of guys who are your training partners, going and training and the other gyms in town.
Personally I am kind of OK with it, but recently some of our guys are hitting the mats at other gyms on nights that we have class. Instead of having some higher level guys to roll with, we end up having a couple blues and a lot of whites, while our purples and other blues are off training at other gyms.
I think cross training is great...if you are hitting the mats at other schools on Sundays or another day that you don't have class at your gym.
Perhaps I am being a little too old school about this, but when these guys show back up at our school, after posting all over facebook about how they are training at other gyms, it kind of pisses me off.
I want to be pushed by the best guys at my school, and when a bunch of our higher level guys are training with other people and all i have to roll with is the 250 lb monster white belt who tries to rip your head off, I dont get better...
What say you?
this "loyalty" you speak of is retarded.
why the fuck do you think these guys are required to show up to your class to train with you so that you don't have to roll with a 250 lb white belt? why do you think they owe it to you not to check out another school (even on the same day as your classes)? who do you think you are bro? your sense of entitlement is ridiculous.
people should train where they like. people shouldn't care about where other people train.
Since when is loyalty a "retarded" concept?
Loyalty is often demanded and expected in most organizations, from countries down to gangs of kids in any given neighborhood. Why is the concept of loyalty such an issue with some american martial artists?
As far as the issue of "entitlement", don't feel that any instructor is entitled to teach you.
As an instructor I feel no obligation to teach what I know and I have worked on for a good part of my life to a person that doesn't understand or adhere to loyalty. The opposite of loyalty are the following
“Leadership is a two-way street, loyalty up and loyalty down. Respect for one's superiors; care for one's crew.”
Every society rests in the last resort on the recognition of common principles and common ideals, and if it makes no moral or spiritual appeal to the loyalty of its members, it must inevitably fall to pieces.
jjfighteromaha - Since when is loyalty a "retarded" concept?
Loyalty is often demanded and expected in most organizations, from countries down to gangs of kids in any given neighborhood. Why is the concept of loyalty such an issue with some american martial artists?
loyalty is fine. however, this idea that you and the OP have that people who practice BJJ have to have "loyalty" to you IS a retarded concept.
As far as the issue of "entitlement", don't feel that any instructor is entitled to teach you.
As an instructor I feel no obligation to teach what I know and I have worked on for a good part of my life to a person that doesn't understand or adhere to loyalty.
lol. i pay my instructor 150 bucks a month to learn BJJ. plus i pay for privates. if i'm giving him money to teach me, i do expect that he will.
^^^ exactly. our society has defined monetary compensation takes place of traditional "loyalty". if an individual wants to go beyond that then that is their business. don't act like everyone else has the problem because they feel they have given enough.
European culture tends to place the individual first, where people of color tend to place the group first.
These are not my findings. They are the findings of academia.
Please cite this study. I would love to read it.
I'm not saying it’s wrong, I'm saying that through living in different areas of the country, playing sports at a fairly competitive level, and working with many different culture's through my own observations I've always felt the opposite.
However I feel that the sense of family is stronger in non-European decent, but not team.
jjfighteromaha - Since when is loyalty a "retarded" concept?
Loyalty is often demanded and expected in most organizations, from countries down to gangs of kids in any given neighborhood. Why is the concept of loyalty such an issue with some american martial artists?
loyalty is fine. however, this idea that you and the OP have that people who practice BJJ have to have "loyalty" to you IS a retarded concept.
As far as the issue of "entitlement", don't feel that any instructor is entitled to teach you.
As an instructor I feel no obligation to teach what I know and I have worked on for a good part of my life to a person that doesn't understand or adhere to loyalty.
lol. i pay my instructor 150 bucks a month to learn BJJ. plus i pay for privates. if i'm giving him money to teach me, i do expect that he will.
Neither me or the OP suggested loyalty to us as individuals. We both wrote of loyalty to the gym. You can go back over our posts if you like.
You pay him and I'm sure you get what you deserve.
Jessy30 - ^^^ exactly. our society has defined monetary compensation takes place of traditional "loyalty". if an individual wants to go beyond that then that is their business. don't act like everyone else has the problem because they feel they have given enough.
This train of thought takes us full circle back to the selfishness of those who know no loyalty.
A person who has trained most of his life in a particular art is not a whore for sale. You may pay your money for instruction, but your attitude and demeanor is more valuable. Again, you may pay, but you will certainly get only what you deserve. Loyalty is a two-way street.
It is the logic of consumerism that undermines the values of loyalty and permanence and promotes a different set of values that is destructive of family life. Christopher Lasch
European culture tends to place the individual first, where people of color tend to place the group first.
These are not my findings. They are the findings of academia.
Please cite this study. I would love to read it.
I'm not saying it’s wrong, I'm saying that through living in different areas of the country, playing sports at a fairly competitive level, and working with many different culture's through my own observations I've always felt the opposite.
However I feel that the sense of family is stronger in non-European decent, but not team.
Therefore I would love to read this.
I'll have to do some searching. The research dealt mainly with familial norms. I'm suggesting that those norms may spill over to other areas as well. I'm not saying whether this is true or not, but it is worth a look.
There could be other causes for disloyalty (distrust, treachery). I'm talking about the norms in some gyms here in america. Some white (in reality this is most likely to exist no matter race or ethnicity) males may feel no loyalty toward gyms headed by other ethnicities because of distrust. This distrust may be valid, it depends on the reason. The reasons for disloyalty could be feelings of racial superiority, historical strife, or simply feelings of nationalism/patriotism.
The lack of loyalty may stem from other motives. Whatever the reason, the disloyalty (distrust, treachery) exists in individuals for a reason. The loyaly would be there, within an individual, if the individual believed in the leadership or organization.
Please, those who choose to provide input try to do so without an excessive emotional response.
"family life". are you referring to the ideal american family life? the one from the ' good ole 50s'? where the father dominated all, women had no say and children (and women) were beaten mercilessly with no repercussions? or todays family life that well over a majority end in divorce?
my point is so many ppl spew terms like family life and american values and loyalty without ever really stopping and thinking what they really mean to billions of others who didn't/don't live in the idealized version (aka VAST minority). we are talking about loyalty. it has been said by both sides that loyalty is a two way street. yet both look at it from only one side.
A) if an instructor gives, of themselves, to an individual, everything they have regarding instruction for nothing more than to see the student do well and the student does well and is content with what they are being taught they (the instructor) are deserving of the idealized concept of loyalty. this is a perfect two way street.
B) if an instructor gives, of themselves, everything they have regarding instruction to a group, for a rate, and the students are contentand do well that instructor only receives the loyalty that is paid to them in terms monetary compensation. the two way street here is money one way and group instruction the other.
C) if an instructor gives, of themselves, everything they have regarding instruction for nothing and it is not the instruction the individual is seeking. traditional loyalty is NOT owed because it is no longer a two way street. this goes doubly for that instructor receiving monetary compensation.
LOL@ me not understanding grappling, coaching, and speculating that I am a blue belt. You are a big fish in a small pond and probably suffer from an inflated ego as a result. You don't understand just how limited your training environment is and how its holding you back. You don't understand how I've crushed every point you have tried to make using simple logic. You have contradicted yourself post after post and despite my efforts to expose this your brain still refuses to accept that your ideas are not in harmony with one another! (ex. you say higher level training partners have a duty to help their inferiors yet claim that one can improve just as steadily with inferior training partners.)
I infer that you have simply had these values concerning loyalty ingrained into you but never actually sat down and thought your way through these ideas, and now that your values are being questioned you can't formulate a coherent argument properly.
Let me put it this way, if you handed in a paper entitled "Loyalty in BJJ" to my old Ethics professor back in Freshman year of college, you would be getting back a paper covered in red ink.
"I want to be pushed by the best guys at my school, and when a bunch of our higher level guys are training with other people and all i have to roll with is the 250 lb monster white belt who tries to rip your head off, I dont get better..."
LOL, even the OP recognizes the value of tough training partners.
Hey jjfightermaha, I would LOVE for you to send an email out to the wrestling coaches at U Iowa or OSU and lay down some knowledge about how a "tough room" is totally unnecessary for the optimal improvement of their wrestlers. Get back to me after you do that and let us all know how that conversation goes.
Hey jjfightermaha, I would LOVE for you to send an email out to the wrestling coaches at U Iowa or OSU and lay down some knowledge about how a "tough room" is totally unnecessary for the optimal improvement of their wrestlers. Get back to me after you do that and let us all know how that conversation goes.
Iron sharpens Iron. Metcalf and Swabe are proof. They were killing each other.
Hey jjfightermaha, I would LOVE for you to send an email out to the wrestling coaches at U Iowa or OSU and lay down some knowledge about how a "tough room" is totally unnecessary for the optimal improvement of their wrestlers. Get back to me after you do that and let us all know how that conversation goes.
Iron sharpens Iron. Metcalf and Swabe are proof. They were killing each other.
How do you think the Iowa program got to where they are now? There wrestlers have loyalty to their program. That program had to be built from teamwork and selflessness.
The attitudes of some guys in this forum would never contribute to building anything, and that is my point.
Loyalty to your gym or program is valid and necessary .
No gym needs the "tough guys" that roam from gym to gym thinking only of themselves. They don't contribute, don't help build, and they are not needed. Every gym knows what type of guys I'm talking about.
If you want to show us how tough you are, show it at competitions where it counts and learn how to train properly in the gym in order to truly improve.
Dude, you obviously suffer from some gross distortion of reality.
I wasn't even TALKING about loyalty in that post, you COMPLETELY missed the point. I could type anything in this post, anything at all, and I know you will come back and find some absolutely absurd way to rationalize your values.
And you are STILL going on about what bad people roamers are? Seriously, WTF is wrong with your brain?
HoldYerGround - Dude, you obviously suffer from some gross distortion of reality.
I wasn't even TALKING about loyalty in that post, you COMPLETELY missed the point. I could type anything in this post, anything at all, and I know you will come back and find some absolutely absurd way to rationalize your values.
And you are STILL going on about what bad people roamers are? Seriously, WTF is wrong with your brain?
Ummm, no, you're completely missing the point or just refuse to change your ways, which is fine. You'll just miss out on one of the greatest things about bjj, building friendships with bonds stronger than in most families.
I am not loyal to my instructor just because I train with him, have paid him in the past or even because I feel I'm getting the best training around.
Simply put, I am loyal to my instructor because he is loyal to me.
My instructor is a good friend of mine who has gone out of his way to help me out MANY times over the 12+ I have known him. He always has my back and is always honest with me, wether I like it or not, because he always has my best interest. He genuinely cares that I continue to work towards being the best I can be, on and off the mats, and I am a better person for it.
My teammates are also good friends who push, help and support me and I do my best to do the same for them.
Our network is HUGE now with over 40 black belts and many affiliated academies. I train at some of those academies and even some that aren't affiliated. My instructor is fine with that and knows I do my best to represent him well and bring what I have learned back to the academy.
Money, big names, trophies and patches can't buy that kind of loyalty.
