Why would a good instructor stop a student from doing something that would be conducive to his progress?
You can cross train and still help out your teammates can't you? Are you going to give your teammates shit for choosing to take a girl out for dinner rather than hit practice that night too?
Rolling with a more experienced opponent is a pretty one sided arrangement. Someone who consistently beats you in practice doesn't get much out of the roll compared to you. You don't have much to teach or offer them. They have to go around town to get the kind of challenge they need to advance, and here you are giving them shit when you benefit from a one sided arrangement with them in your favor. What do you do for these tougher players? Apparently not enough.
its the same frat boy / TMA mentality so many guys love to make fun of karate, kung fu, etc. for. As long as they are coming back and still working with you all and helping you as well there is nothing wrong w it.
^^^ nailed it 
They are not coming back and working with us, because they are too busy NOT being there on regular training nights.
mmaguy has it worse than I do because he is higher level. I can at least still be challenged by the blue belts at the school.
Level of instruction is certainly not the issue. One of the creonte came back last week and I beat on him pretty good during open mat time...and told him exactly why I was doing it...he offered up a lame defense.
HoldYerGround - Why would a good instructor stop a student from doing something that would be conducive to his progress?Could you repost this within English grammar standards? I was going to reply, but I"m not sure WTF it is you're talking about.
You can cross train and still help out your teammates can't you? Are you going to give your teammates shit for choosing to take a girl out for dinner rather than hit practice that night too?
Rolling with a more experienced opponent is a pretty one sided arrangement. Someone who consistently beats you in practice doesn't get much out of the roll compared to you. You don't have much to teach or offer them. They have to go around town to get the kind of challenge they need to advance, and here you are giving them shit when you benefit from a one sided arrangement with them in your favor. What do you do for these tougher players? Apparently not enough.
My take on the subject,
Loyalty means alot. Those of european descent usually have trouble with this concept and I think it is a matter of culture.
European culture tends to place the individual first, where people of color tend to place the group first.
These are not my findings. They are the findings of academia.
Americans of european descent tend to lack or do not appreciate the concept of loyalty and team first, at least when the leadership is not of euro descent. I guess it's kind of like a republican/conservative mindset.
On another note, I don't think one can truly learn jumping from gym to gym. I think you can learn in any environment. To learn you have to be a good student. Higher belts can learn while training with lower belts, if learning is what you are doing. How else can you learn precision, timing, etc? You fight/compete against your peers, but you hone your skills using lower belts. If you are competing with everyone, then that is a different thing. Competing in the gym environment with lower belts is a waste of time, if that is what you are doing. If you want to compete, there are plenty of tournaments in which to participate.
So, when in your home gym, are you training or secretly competing against everyone?
I have a VERY strict feeling about this. Doing an open mat once or twice a month at another school is cool enough. Beyond that, it's a sport/art. You are considered part of a TEAM. You don't see the Baltimore Ravens working out with the Steelers a couple times a week. Nor the Buckeyes players making trips to Nebraska every so often.
Pick a team. If you're happy with the teaching and training, stay there and don't "dabble" much. If you're unhappy, move elsewhere and say why.
jjfighteromaha -not really.
European culture tends to place the individual first, where people of color tend to place the group first.
These are not my findings. They are the findings of academia.
why do you think europeans have beat so much ass?
because we work together as a team.
maybe some faggot ass hipsters only give a shit about themselves
Saying they want to train with better competition is a lame excuse.
They are not training. They are competing.
If you want to compete, go to tournaments and stop competing with everyone else in the gym.
I'm a brown belt. everyone in my small school is below me in experience, technically, and knowledge-wise. Yet, I am still able to improve because I actually train. How do I improve?
When I roll/spar, I fight the position and not the person. I train to do things correctly, regarding technique.
I try to improve my precision
I try to improve my timing
I improve grip fighting
I improve how I attack leverage points
and on and on...
Some of these things, it's best to do with lower belts before you go to the higher belts.
I also train different areas consistently because I have to teach them to lower belts. This keeps me constantly drilling the basics.
In other words. I learn by giving.
I also have to sacrifice in order to build a strong team around me. If I don't, then who will?
Those who are selfish and don't give back will NEVER learn in the end.
You will bounce from gym to gym expecting someone to always bend-over backwards to accomodate you and your selfish motives. You never give, but always take, thus you will NEVER truly learn.
Another concept of learning is...YOU have to learn to learn.
An instructor can guide you, and show you, but it is YOU that has to do the learning.
I.E., I can show you a technique, but YOU have to take that technique, drill it, and make it your own. You have to take that technique and make it work for you and your gameplan.
The only way you are going to do that is to study and practice diligently.
For me to improve I have to also do these things. It doesn't matter how tough or good my partners are. They have nothing to do with how I learn. I will say that it matters if those around you are good enough teachers to help you learn how to learn.
So please, stop with this nonsense about, "I need tougher training partners, etc". What some of you need is to learn how to learn.
^great post!
jjfighteromaha - Saying they want to train with better competition is a lame excuse.
They are not training. They are competing.
If you want to compete, go to tournaments and stop competing with everyone else in the gym.
I'm a brown belt. everyone in my small school is below me in experience, technically, and knowledge-wise. Yet, I am still able to improve because I actually train. How do I improve?
When I roll/spar, I fight the position and not the person. I train to do things correctly, regarding technique.
I try to improve my precision
I try to improve my timing
I improve grip fighting
I improve how I attack leverage points
and on and on...
Some of these things, it's best to do with lower belts before you go to the higher belts.
I also train different areas consistently because I have to teach them to lower belts. This keeps me constantly drilling the basics.
In other words. I learn by giving.
I also have to sacrifice in order to build a strong team around me. If I don't, then who will?
Those who are selfish and don't give back will NEVER learn in the end.
You will bounce from gym to gym expecting someone to always bend-over backwards to accomodate you and your selfish motives. You never give, but always take, thus you will NEVER truly learn.
Another concept of learning is...YOU have to learn to learn.
An instructor can guide you, and show you, but it is YOU that has to do the learning.
I.E., I can show you a technique, but YOU have to take that technique, drill it, and make it your own. You have to take that technique and make it work for you and your gameplan.
The only way you are going to do that is to study and practice diligently.
For me to improve I have to also do these things. It doesn't matter how tough or good my partners are. They have nothing to do with how I learn. I will say that it matters if those around you are good enough teachers to help you learn how to learn.
So please, stop with this nonsense about, "I need tougher training partners, etc". What some of you need is to learn how to learn.
^This!!! I wonder how many of the "train anywhere you want" guys are brown or black belts?
nijuro -
^This!!! I wonder how many of the "train anywhere you want" guys are brown or black belts?
I've been a black belt for 7yrs. I say train where you want.
jjfighteromaha - My take on the subject,
Loyalty means alot. Those of european descent usually have trouble with this concept and I think it is a matter of culture.
European culture tends to place the individual first, where people of color tend to place the group first.
These are not my findings. They are the findings of academia.
Americans of european descent tend to lack or do not appreciate the concept of loyalty and team first, at least when the leadership is not of euro descent. I guess it's kind of like a republican/conservative mindset.
This is ridiculous. If you're going to post something so outlandish, at least provide a proper source.
jjfighteromaha - Saying they want to train with better competition is a lame excuse.
They are not training. They are competing.
If you want to compete, go to tournaments and stop competing with everyone else in the gym.
I'm a brown belt. everyone in my small school is below me in experience, technically, and knowledge-wise. Yet, I am still able to improve because I actually train.
You may still be able to improve but there is no way you are learning at optimum capacity. More technical or tougher training partners are able to pick apart the holes in your game exposing your weak links. This gives you the opportunity to go back to the drawing board and fine tune your techniques. By training exclusively with lower level partners, you are only getting half of the progression you need for the steepest possible learning curve. Why do you think Ryan Hall makes trips all the way from Arlington, VA to train with Marcelo in NYC? To "compete"?
Why am I still paying for BJJ classes when I could easily just train at home with some friends while still maintaining the same rate of progress?
Another reason to attend more than one gym is to expose yourself to a plethora of games. Different instructors who specialize in certain areas usually offer the better instruction therein. That's why I get my inverted guard DVDs from Cyborg and not from Roy Dean. Furthermore, training amongst a wide variety of partners helps familiarize yourself with how to deal with multiple games and body types.
...and lets be honest, training with the same group of people day in and day out can get fucking boring, especially if you are top dog.
jjfighteromaha - Those who are selfish and don't give back will NEVER learn in the end.
You will bounce from gym to gym expecting someone to always bend-over backwards to accomodate you and your selfish motives. You never give, but always take, thus you will NEVER truly learn.
Teaching others is a good way to step up your game. But by no means is it MANDATORY. I learned a lot in college and very rarely did anything resembling tutoring other students. I know EXCELLENT sports players who can't teach for shit, yet they seem to have learned how to do things for themselves correctly (because the concepts are internalized I suppose).
Besides, you're implying that only selfish people train at a variety of places, which is frankly untrue. When I lived in China I bounced around 4 different gyms and tried to spread everything I knew. So one can indeed attend a variety of schools and act unselfishly.
HoldYerGround -
You may still be able to improve but there is no way you are learning at optimum capacity. More technical or tougher training partners are able to pick apart the holes in your game exposing your weak links. This gives you the opportunity to go back to the drawing board and fine tune your techniques. By training exclusively with lower level partners, you are only getting half of the progression you need for the steepest possible learning curve. Why do you think Ryan Hall makes trips all the way from Arlington, VA to train with Marcelo in NYC? To "compete"?
Why am I still paying for BJJ classes when I could easily just train at home with some friends while still maintaining the same rate of progress?
Another reason to attend more than one gym is to expose yourself to a plethora of games. Different instructors who specialize in certain areas usually offer the better instruction therein. That's why I get my inverted guard DVDs from Cyborg and not from Roy Dean. Furthermore, training amongst a wide variety of partners helps familiarize yourself with how to deal with multiple games and body types.
...and lets be honest, training with the same group of people day in and day out can get fucking boring, especially if you are top dog.
Teaching others is a good way to step up your game. But by no means is it MANDATORY. I learned a lot in college and very rarely did anything resembling tutoring other students. I know EXCELLENT sports players who can't teach for shit, yet they seem to have learned how to do things for themselves correctly (because the concepts are internalized I suppose).
Besides, you're implying that only selfish people train at a variety of places, which is frankly untrue. When I lived in China I bounced around 4 different gyms and tried to spread everything I knew. So one can indeed attend a variety of schools and act unselfishly.
you said it yourself, you FIGHT/roll/spar more experienced people, find out what's wrong, then go back and "fine tune" (or do you mean train?) to address concerns. I see "rolling" with lower belts as "training" because they usually don't have the expertise or knowledge level to threaten me. When "training" with lower belts I can afford to experiment and fine tune, this is a luxury i can't afford when sparring with peers. My point is, you can "train" even with lower belts, if that is what you are actually doing, but if you are not actually training, but being more of a competitor, then of course, you need something else. I am using the terms "rolling/sparring differently than "training", even though you may be using the terms in the same context.
You are paying for BJJ classes to learn the art of BJJ. Obivously you can't learn the art of BJJ without someone giving the information. This has nothing to do with training in the context being discussed. A student at a lower level gaining basic knowledge does not have the same expectaions and responsibilities as higher level practioners. We are discussing higher belt levels, correct me if I'm wrong. I am of the opinion that higher level guys don't have to leave their gyms to train. They responsibilities at their own gyms, and they will also learn by fulfilling those responsibilities. They will probably learn more than doing this than seeking people to compete against.
GJJ is simple. The gameplan is the same, regardless of bodytype. That is my perspective, which sticks to basic GJJ principles. Maybe you are more sport bjj oriented. My gameplan is the same regardless, whether we are talking mma, sport bjj, or self defense (I'm doing some generalizing here). Besides, I think a credible bjj instructor could address your needs, if he/she is credible.
Top dog? I suspect you do more competing than training. If you are actually training something, then all you need is a body. Go be top dog at a tournament.
Teaching is a good way to learn and I never said it was mandatory.
Okay, you like to bounce from gym to gym. That fulfills YOUR needs. I don't have to bounce and I don't feel the need to do so. If I want to learn about 10th planet, then I research 10th planet and I train it. Same with self defense or sport bjj moves. I know because i do this. I know the basics work against anyone or any style because i've competed enough to know this. I guess I know bouncing around isn't necessary from experience. When i train and train different games, i not only train myself, but also the people around me. When someone asks about 10th planet bjj, we dissect and test the moves or theories. I've learned alot about it, expecially why it's not for me. Guys get to fight against these styles in competition, so what's the big deal about bouncing around?
Besides, it doesn't make sense to me to pay a bunch of different fees at different facilities.
Also, guys that do this bouncing around rubs me the wrong way when they come bouncing around my way. Come to my place to learn and train, don't come to my place thinking your gonna roll over people. I don't and won't tolerate polluting my environment in such a manner.
The attitude of don't go to this school or you can only train here or whatever seems to be more prevalent in places where there is not much BJJ. In Socal, I can't tell you of how many people I know that cross train with other people and for the most part everyone is cool with it. I guess this attitude has not spread outside of the centers of BJJ.
jjfighteromaha -
Also, guys that do this bouncing around rubs me the wrong way when they come bouncing around my way. Come to my place to learn and train, don't come to my place thinking your gonna roll over people. I don't and won't tolerate polluting my environment in such a manner.
Who says they have the intention of steam rolling over people? Maybe they just want to train with different people. If you eat salami sandwiches everyday, you wouldn't want to eat roast beef once in a while?
Now if they come in with attitude, that's a whole different ballgame and it should rub you the wrong way. This is BJJ though, almost everyone is cool and there is always a "gate keeper" to keep visitors in line.
Also, I don't know who it was earlier that made the analogy of pro teams. To that, during the season they don't train together, but durng the off-season they do. Just look at Derrick Rose who has been flying out to California to train with Kevin Love and Russell Westbrook. Westbrook even playing the same position. You also have countless NFL players doing the same thing.
jjfighteromaha - you said it yourself, you FIGHT/roll/spar more experienced people, find out what's wrong, then go back and "fine tune" (or do you mean train?) to address concerns. I see "rolling" with lower belts as "training" because they usually don't have the expertise or knowledge level to threaten me. When "training" with lower belts I can afford to experiment and fine tune, this is a luxury i can't afford when sparring with peers. My point is, you can "train" even with lower belts, if that is what you are actually doing, but if you are not actually training, but being more of a competitor, then of course, you need something else. I am using the terms "rolling/sparring differently than "training", even though you may be using the terms in the same context.
You can train with lower level belts to a certain extent, no one is saying they are useless. However, you will only get a limited progression. Its the same as having your opponent crank up the resistance level as you attempt techniques. First he goes 10%, 20%, etc. until you have the proficiency to execute the technique against an unwilling opponent. Training with those below you is like ONLY training with guys going at 50%. Its common sense, you don't become an elite gamer beating COD set to recruit again and again.
jjfighteromaha - A student at a lower level gaining basic knowledge does not have the same expectaions and responsibilities as higher level practioners. We are discussing higher belt levels, correct me if I'm wrong. I am of the opinion that higher level guys don't have to leave their gyms to train. They responsibilities at their own gyms, and they will also learn by fulfilling those responsibilities. They will probably learn more than doing this than seeking people to compete against.
You are presenting a false dichotomy by implying that experienced players can EITHER "fulfill responsibilities" or bounce around. They can certainly do both, as I already explained I have done in the past. Also, your ideas concerning learning via teaching don't really add up. Higher belts are expected to learn more by teaching than "seeking people to compete against". By your logic, ergo the lower belts would do well for themselves to only train with those below them and try and teach as much as possible (of course this wouldn't be as productive for the person being taught). Teaching can certainly help you but your feelings on the matter are flawed.
jjfighteromaha - Teaching is a good way to learn and I never said it was mandatory.
Then why are you always going on about the responsibilities of experienced practitioners?
jjfighteromaha -
GJJ is simple. The gameplan is the same, regardless of bodytype. That is my perspective, which sticks to basic GJJ principles. Maybe you are more sport bjj oriented. My gameplan is the same regardless, whether we are talking mma, sport bjj, or self defense (I'm doing some generalizing here). Besides, I think a credible bjj instructor could address your needs, if he/she is credible.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
jjfighteromaha - Top dog? I suspect you do more competing than training. If you are actually training something, then all you need is a body. Go be top dog at a tournament.
I am confused by your nomenclature. To be clear, I go to a lot more classes than tournaments. I don't know how you came to whatever conclusion you did because of my "top dog" statement, but its wrong. I'm still merely holding onto the idea that being in a room with better training partners increases your progress. Being the most technical or best guy is not good for your BJJ.
jjfighteromaha - Besides, it doesn't make sense to me to pay a bunch of different fees at different facilities.
But it makes sense to pay for a shitload of tournaments to make up for the lack of tough training partners? Use some common sense.
jjfighteromaha - Okay, you like to bounce from gym to gym. That fulfills YOUR needs. I don't have to bounce and I don't feel the need to do so. If I want to learn about 10th planet, then I research 10th planet and I train it. Same with self defense or sport bjj moves. I know because i do this. I know the basics work against anyone or any style because i've competed enough to know this. I guess I know bouncing around isn't necessary from experience. When i train and train different games, i not only train myself, but also the people around me. When someone asks about 10th planet bjj, we dissect and test the moves or theories. I've learned alot about it, expecially why it's not for me. Guys get to fight against these styles in competition, so what's the big deal about bouncing around?
If you or none of your training partners are not proficient in 10th Planet I would not trust training it with you to prepare me to beat a solid 10th Planet player or learn the techniques for myself to use. If my training partners don't play that game and play it well I will be unprepared for someone who does. The same goes for inverted players, RDLR players, 50/50 gamers, and all other more advanced games.
jjfighteromaha - Also, guys that do this bouncing around rubs me the wrong way when they come bouncing around my way. Come to my place to learn and train, don't come to my place thinking your gonna roll over people. I don't and won't tolerate polluting my environment in such a manner.
WTF are you talking about? Did you have a bad experience with a creonte as a child that haunts you till this day? There is no reason why someone who goes to a couple different gyms is automatically an asshole.
HoldYerGround -I can tell by the points you "attempt" to make that you don't really understand the art of grappling, the businees part of martial arts, or the art of coaching. I think it would be useless to continue this debate.jjfighteromaha - you said it yourself, you FIGHT/roll/spar more experienced people, find out what's wrong, then go back and "fine tune" (or do you mean train?) to address concerns. I see "rolling" with lower belts as "training" because they usually don't have the expertise or knowledge level to threaten me. When "training" with lower belts I can afford to experiment and fine tune, this is a luxury i can't afford when sparring with peers. My point is, you can "train" even with lower belts, if that is what you are actually doing, but if you are not actually training, but being more of a competitor, then of course, you need something else. I am using the terms "rolling/sparring differently than "training", even though you may be using the terms in the same context.
You can train with lower level belts to a certain extent, no one is saying they are useless. However, you will only get a limited progression. Its the same as having your opponent crank up the resistance level as you attempt techniques. First he goes 10%, 20%, etc. until you have the proficiency to execute the technique against an unwilling opponent. Training with those below you is like ONLY training with guys going at 50%. Its common sense, you don't become an elite gamer beating COD set to recruit again and again.
jjfighteromaha - A student at a lower level gaining basic knowledge does not have the same expectaions and responsibilities as higher level practioners. We are discussing higher belt levels, correct me if I'm wrong. I am of the opinion that higher level guys don't have to leave their gyms to train. They responsibilities at their own gyms, and they will also learn by fulfilling those responsibilities. They will probably learn more than doing this than seeking people to compete against.
You are presenting a false dichotomy by implying that experienced players can EITHER "fulfill responsibilities" or bounce around. They can certainly do both, as I already explained I have done in the past. Also, your ideas concerning learning via teaching don't really add up. Higher belts are expected to learn more by teaching than "seeking people to compete against". By your logic, ergo the lower belts would do well for themselves to only train with those below them and try and teach as much as possible (of course this wouldn't be as productive for the person being taught). Teaching can certainly help you but your feelings on the matter are flawed.
jjfighteromaha - Teaching is a good way to learn and I never said it was mandatory.
Then why are you always going on about the responsibilities of experienced practitioners?
jjfighteromaha -
GJJ is simple. The gameplan is the same, regardless of bodytype. That is my perspective, which sticks to basic GJJ principles. Maybe you are more sport bjj oriented. My gameplan is the same regardless, whether we are talking mma, sport bjj, or self defense (I'm doing some generalizing here). Besides, I think a credible bjj instructor could address your needs, if he/she is credible.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
jjfighteromaha - Top dog? I suspect you do more competing than training. If you are actually training something, then all you need is a body. Go be top dog at a tournament.
I am confused by your nomenclature. To be clear, I go to a lot more classes than tournaments. I don't know how you came to whatever conclusion you did because of my "top dog" statement, but its wrong. I'm still merely holding onto the idea that being in a room with better training partners increases your progress. Being the most technical or best guy is not good for your BJJ.
jjfighteromaha - Besides, it doesn't make sense to me to pay a bunch of different fees at different facilities.
But it makes sense to pay for a shitload of tournaments to make up for the lack of tough training partners? Use some common sense.
jjfighteromaha - Okay, you like to bounce from gym to gym. That fulfills YOUR needs. I don't have to bounce and I don't feel the need to do so. If I want to learn about 10th planet, then I research 10th planet and I train it. Same with self defense or sport bjj moves. I know because i do this. I know the basics work against anyone or any style because i've competed enough to know this. I guess I know bouncing around isn't necessary from experience. When i train and train different games, i not only train myself, but also the people around me. When someone asks about 10th planet bjj, we dissect and test the moves or theories. I've learned alot about it, expecially why it's not for me. Guys get to fight against these styles in competition, so what's the big deal about bouncing around?
If you or none of your training partners are not proficient in 10th Planet I would not trust training it with you to prepare me to beat a solid 10th Planet player or learn the techniques for myself to use. If my training partners don't play that game and play it well I will be unprepared for someone who does. The same goes for inverted players, RDLR players, 50/50 gamers, and all other more advanced games.
jjfighteromaha - Also, guys that do this bouncing around rubs me the wrong way when they come bouncing around my way. Come to my place to learn and train, don't come to my place thinking your gonna roll over people. I don't and won't tolerate polluting my environment in such a manner.
WTF are you talking about? Did you have a bad experience with a creonte as a child that haunts you till this day? There is no reason why someone who goes to a couple different gyms is automatically an asshole.
Let me make these simple points:
higher belts can train with lower belts and improve and your are not limited in how much you can progress or maintain what you have. why don't you ask other brown and black belts how they progress/maintain skill
higher belts have a responsibility to train lower belts in order for the entire gym to improve
the lower belts will eventually improve and become "tough" rolls too
i always thought of tournaments as having the value of a month's worth of training. competing in tournaments is far better than bouncing around other gyms to get experience and to roll with "tough" people, unless you are competing on the sly and trying to save money
as far as you not trusting me about 10th planet, i could care less. at this point in my career there is nothing technique-wise that i have not seen, even from 10th planet.
Finally, the debate is not fruitful because there is too much mixing of "apples and oranges" in the discussion. My perspective doesn't seem to be the same as yours. I don't see things strictly from a sport bjj perspective, which seems to be your point of view. From my perspective whether you play DLR guard, spider guard, 50/50 doesn't matter to me. the principles of grappling never change.
my guess is you are a blue belt
Stranglehold26 - wanted to get the UG's thoughts on loyalty when it comes to training.
What do you think of guys who are your training partners, going and training and the other gyms in town.
Personally I am kind of OK with it, but recently some of our guys are hitting the mats at other gyms on nights that we have class. Instead of having some higher level guys to roll with, we end up having a couple blues and a lot of whites, while our purples and other blues are off training at other gyms.
I think cross training is great...if you are hitting the mats at other schools on Sundays or another day that you don't have class at your gym.
Perhaps I am being a little too old school about this, but when these guys show back up at our school, after posting all over facebook about how they are training at other gyms, it kind of pisses me off.
I want to be pushed by the best guys at my school, and when a bunch of our higher level guys are training with other people and all i have to roll with is the 250 lb monster white belt who tries to rip your head off, I dont get better...
What say you?
this "loyalty" you speak of is retarded.
why the fuck do you think these guys are required to show up to your class to train with you so that you don't have to roll with a 250 lb white belt? why do you think they owe it to you not to check out another school (even on the same day as your classes)? who do you think you are bro? your sense of entitlement is ridiculous.
people should train where they like. people shouldn't care about where other people train.