Although much has been written about Miyamoto Musashi, most of it has been in recent times, probably the last 30 years or so. In reality it's amazing how much we DON'T know about him.
I think a lot of what we THINK we know about him is based on the novel written ny Yoshikawa Eiji, who penned his famous book only 75 years ago. Musashi's duels actual and fabricated occurred around the time of the civil war between the Tokugawa and Toyotomi clans in the late 1500's to early 1600's.
I've read many varying accounts of the encounters between Muso Gonnosuke and Musashi, and it seems any conclusive outcome is almost impossible to verify. Some say they only sueled once, and Musashi won that. Others say they fought twice and Musashi won both. And still yet, some say they fought twice with Musashi winning the first and Gonnosuke winning the return match. In this last version it is said that after being defeated, Gonnosuke meditated in the mountains until he became enlightened with the idea of shortening the 72" bo down to the 60" jo. Then avenging his earlier loss. It makes a nice story, but again it's close to impossible to verify. Even in the various weekly dramas and movies their encounter has been staged in different ways.
From what I've read only a few of his duels should be considered reliably possible. The duels that seem to have the best possiblitity of occurring are his battles with the Yoshioka school, the Hozoin and the famous duel with Sasaki Kojiro. In some chronicles it is written that in their duel Musashi defeated Yoshioka Seijuro the head of the clan with only his wooden bokuto. Go Rin No Sho is written in his words, but outside of his first two duels which took place during his early teens, no mention is made of the more famous matches.
I wish we could know with more certainty what his life was like. If I had a time machine one thing I'd like to observe are his duels and witness his "mu" in a life or death struggle.
Don Draeger makes some interesting claims about Musashi in another article on INYO. ( http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsdraeger_musashi.htm )
He says that Go rin no sho was not written by him but by followers who came after him (not sure if you're saying that in your post when you write that it was "written in his words"), that he was NOT the greatest swordsman of his time, and that several of the paintings attributed to Musashi are most likely the work of someone else.
Thomas Cleary's book "The Japanese Art of War" gives an interesting impression of Musashi. Cleary states that from what we can gather, Musashi never really fully attained a deep level of Zen. According to Cleary, Musashi was too obsessed with his lifelong dedication to dueling. He mentions that Musashi reportedly died of an ulcer. Then again, maybe he did attain Zen and simply gave the impression that he didn't. Confusing us could be seen as following his martial principles. I'm not sure what purpose that would serve after his death though; so maybe someone else can shed some light on that.
Musashi's importance to me is as a reportedly great swordsman who left behind a book of strategy with (basically) an interesting combination of Sun Tzu's Art of War, and the Zen of his time, applied to swordsmanship but also largely applicable to life in general.
But, what do I know...
TH
Here's another Musashi link. Translation's so-so though.
http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/letters/letter2.htm
The founder of Kyokushin karate, Masutatsu Oyama, is asked about Musashi by a young karate student. Oyama calls Musashi the greatest swordsman in Japan's history, as he took on all comers and passed his knowledge on to the future generations. Oyama emulated Musashi when he secluded himself in the mountains of Chiba prefecture for a year's time in the late 1940s. Is Oyama is acting on legend rather than fact here? Maybe that's not important.
TH
western boxing owes a great deal to FMA - boxers used to stand and punch with their palms inverted - faceing upwards - there was a great fillipino boxer (dont remember his name - who was schooled in panatukan - they stood with their fists in a manner that resembles the fighters of today - he was so good they changed there methods to mimic his ala the fallsberry flop (sp?)- panatukan took their que from kali (arnis/escrima) - picture yourself holding a knive in each hand and holding it in a "ice pick" type grip - looks just like a boxers stance, dont it? - also there was another great fillipino boxer who was very closer to ali. he shuffled long before ali did. it's said ali got his foot work straight from the fillipino-
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there's a guy who is alive today that a japaneese sword master - the guy does movies - he was in one with christopher lambert - where these ninja's are after him cause he saw some chick get killed after he had sex w/her - anyway he the greatest living japaneese sword dude alive - i heard he is actually one of the best ever
some possible grips with a staff be it 3', 4', 5', 6'+
baseball grip = 2 hands on one end, one FMA style comes to mind: tapado, and i believe GT Leo Gaje teaches 4'-5' staff with baseball grip.
from CMA comes these names:
double-ended: both ends of the staff are used, like in robin hood and pugil stick fights
single-ended: only one end is used (like a spear). in CMA/WCK, usually this one end is tapered. generally only the last 6" are used. mainly used for thrusting or "biu gwun" aka "biu lung cheung" (darting dragon spear). if i understood what i read from the prev. posts, the old-time quarterstaff was single-ended.
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i have no evidence, but i believe WCK and old-time bareknuckle boxing developed separately but coincidence resembles each other a bit. i have heard a rumor that aikijujitsu (precursor to aikido) developed from CMA's bagua/pa kua. again i have no evidence, but i think it developed separately. chalk both up to synchronicity
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sreiter mentions anthony delongis in the highlander episode with the spanish school of swordplay. it was named "duende". i have not seen it.
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truefightscholar,
i have probably tons of q's but no answers :-(
i hear you asking for example :-) so, for example, did WCK come from old-time boxing; did aikijujitsu come from bagua/pakua; how did WCK developed; did Chang San-feng developed Taijiquan/taichichuan; what is the influence if any of fukien CMA on JMA's sanchin and there's a style of karate which mark stewart has 2 vids from unique on whose name escapes me presently; what are the relationships of CMA's bak mei and southern praying mantis and southern dragon, and the list goes on....
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pls ttt this - GREAT THREAD!!!
sreiter...I heard the "FMA influenced western boxing" story just a few nights ago. I just don't think it makes sense. It sounds suspect, but I would like to know more about it either way.
sreiter..." boxers used to stand and punch with their palms inverted - faceing upwards "
I have never heard nor seen that one. Pugilists and boxers up until Dempsey's time tended to hit with a vertical fist. Punching with your palm upwards all the time doesn't seem very practical.
ye -
go back to the 1800's - early 1900's - i cant believe you havent seen that - even at age 28. - havent you seen people who stood like that in a joking manner - saying put'em up, put'em up - sometimes they would make a "riding a bicycle" type motion with their hands while moving around - punching that way wasnt very practical (except upper cuts) - not sure if every punch was like that - but the jab sure was - so i imagine the cross was too. it was more a stance type thing - and it allowed the snap of the punch when twisting your wrist when delivering your blow - they found out how impractical it was when they got their asses beat by the fillipino - LOL - think of my referrence to fossberry - now-a-days - i'm sure people dont think high jumping by doing a forward roll over a high bar is very practical - but before fossberry blew everyone out of the water and changed the sport forever - that was conventional wisdom
Interesting! Is there any proof of this pre-Queensbury/Wing Chun connection. I find it a little difficult to imagine though, as Chinese martial artists, until recently, tend to be rather stubborn-minded.
I think we need a
Q&A about Q&A
LOL @ Socal- Hey socal How you doing ? I miss ITG.
This topic should be retitled - "luck wins against unskilled opponents"-- Im sure there were 10,000 sword victories over sticks that went unnoticed .
The only reason many stick weapons were used was due to a shortage of metal to forge with in Fuedal Japan. Having a sword was far preferable than Nunchaku or any other woden counterpart for close combat. The same thing in Fuedal Europe- Although Pikemen and lances had their uses. Me, I would not have been a swordsman. I would have been an archer . We just picked you fellers off at long range and head for the hills when ya got too close. :)
"In almost all the woodcuts I have seen though, from the 16th century through the 18th, the practitioner was always holding the staff as described above; with one hand on the end, and one near the center, pointing the stick at his opponent. "
Cool - right now I'm learning some northern chinese long spear technique, and we hold the long spear the same way. The spear is longer than it sounds like the quarterstaff is, (around 10' or a few inches short of that), but it is called the "king of all weapons" by the northern chinese - that is, a guy with a spear could beat a guy with any other weapon.
::"If the Spaniards were supposedly getting their asses kicked in hand to hand fighting, I don't think that the modern filipino arts would be using Spanish terms." ::
That's a really weird statement. Don't you think the fact that the Spaniards took over the Philippines has more to do with it? Something like 1/5 of the Tagalog vocabulary is words of Spanish origin.
The question about Filipino arts vs. Spanish arts seems kind of silly to me anyway. Filipino martial arts aren't as concerned with "lineage" as Japanese arts, for example. They're of a military background and simply use whatever works. With the huge Spanish influence on Filipino culture, of course that will be extended to the martial arts. (with the exception of the Muslims who have stayed seperate)
I just read "Arnis: Reflections and Traditions of the Development of the Filipino Martial Arts" and everyone should drop what they're doing and get it :) One of the great essays in it is "Rizal: Zen Life, Zen Death" by Rene Navarro, where the Filipino hero Jose Rizal is examined as a martial artist (he was a lifelong martial artist) and is compared to Miyamoto Musashi's ideal.
You all have probably already checked out the article from INYO about Musashi at http://www.ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Hurst_0101.htm but if you haven't, do it.
Great thread. I love this stuff.
I don't know of any other accounts, but when Musashi defeated Muso he spared his life. So when Muso defeated Musashi, he returned the favor.
I had come to understand that Gonnosuke Muso and Miyamoto Musashi had tremendous respect for each other, and avoided each other so that they wouldn't have to fight to death. Just what I had heard.
Excellent thread.
Greg
I always heard that the story about Musashi being defeated by the jo was... suspect, at best. Musashi was the most famous swordsman of his time. Defeating him by killing him would gain the victor great honor, while leaving him alive wouldn't. Is there any confirmation of the Musashi defeat, from someone besides a jo practicioner?
I am extremely impressd it TrufighScholar's and IBI's knowledge.
IBI beat me to it. Wing Chun and old English Pugilism look very related. Look at the "centerline" stance that the pugilists used. One interesting thing to note, Jack Dempsey may have been one of the last boxers that had a bit of the "old style" pugilism in his technique. In his book he criticizes modern boxing technique (I think the book was written in the 1950's), saying the jab is too weak and the hand positioning it wrong. Dempsey says it is important to punch with a vertical fist (elbow down just like Wing Chun). He also says it is important to punch with the last 3 knuckles of the fist (also like Wing Chun). This holds a lot of weight to the theory that the Chinese witnessed boxing from English sailors and emulated it. The fact that Wing Chun doesn't really resemble any other form of Kung Fu also strengthens this theory.
Stevevt...what Spaniards are you refering to that got "their asses handed to them" by the local filipino's? If you are referring to the account of Magellan dying on the the shores of the Phillipines, then read what TrueFightScholar wrote. It is true that Magellan had around 50 men and the filipino warriors numbered anywhere from 1,500 to 5,000 (depending on the source). Also the ship was too far out of range to fire it's cannons. Magellan and his men were walking in knee to waist deep water. Here is Pigafetta's account:
"...Recognizing the captain, they turned toward him inasmuch as twice they hurled arrows very close to his head. But as a good captain and knight he still stood fast with some others, fighting thus for more than an hour. And as he refused to retire further, an Indian threw a bamboo lance at his face, and the captain immediately killed him with his lance, leaving it in his body. Then trying to lay hand on his sword, he could draw it out but halfway, because of a wound from a bamboo lance that he had in his arm. Which seeing, all those people threw themselves on him, and one of them with a large javelin (which is like a partisan, only thicker), thrust it into his left leg, whereby he fell face downward. On this, all at once rushed upon him with lances of iron and of bamboo with these javelins, so they slew our mirror, our light, our comfort and our true guide." - Antonio Pigafetta, 1521
According to this account (which is the only one we have) Magellan fought hard for an hour and continued to fight after he was seemingly hit in the face with a bamboo spear. Magellan never even had a chance to draw his sword before he was bum-rushed.
If the Spaniards were supposedly getting their asses kicked in hand to hand fighting, I don't think that the modern filipino arts would be using Spanish terms. Espada y Daga means "sword and dagger" in Spanish. The firearms of the Spanish were not as much of a factor in their defeating the filipino natives as one might think. Even author John Clements notes this when he writes:
"However, a few light-calibre shipboard cannon and inaccurate, slow firing arquebuses in a tropical climate are not about to win a battle over overwhelming odds (back in Europe at the time, they had a lot more guns and still they had to rely on massed pikes and cavalry)."
There seems to be a great influence of Spanish sword (cut and thrust), as well as rapier and dagger.
The Spanish soldiers of Magellan's time (1520's) were not using rapiers. The military side arm of that time would have been a broader-bladed cut and thrust sword, but the Spanish were there for 300 years, so I am sure the locals later witnessed plenty of Spanish rapier and dagger that was slowly becoming popular with civilians in the late 16th century. Spanish civilians were still dueling with rapier and dagger in the 18th century (the rapier by then being a long, thin cup hilt), when almost all of Europe was using the smallsword (basically a light, well balanced duelling weapon with no edge). It is also interesting to note the resemblance of footwork in many modern filipino systems and the footwork shown in late 16th to 18th century Spanish rapier manuals (this is just a theory and proves nothing, just interesting to note).
Ye Lunatic,
please cut and paste the URLs of the pix you wanted to post
bobisabovethelaw,
if the spear wielder was highly skilled, he would beat other weapons, if the average foot soldier wielded the spear, he would not beat a highly skilled swordsman.
can you share some of your norther spear training? not to highjack this thread, maybe post in the Q&A weapons?
TIA.
ttmft - GREAT THREAD
Yes, the "king of weapons" thing assumed a skilled spear wielder.
I just started the training two weeks ago. Our "spears" (they don't have a tip) are about 9'8-10" long, made of tapered waxwood. They were spears, they would have a metal point at the end. There were barbs facing the opposite end, and horsehair at the base of the metal tip to keep blood from splashing back onto the shaft.
Right now all we're doing is practicing these half-circular "windshield wiper" motions, used for defense. Later on, we may learn the chinese staff, as well. The staff is shorter and wielded differently. I haven't seen it, but from descriptions it sounds like the technique is more similar to the "robin hood" quarterstaff, that is, you grab it with two hands and whack your opponent with the ends.
first off - all phillipine history was writen by non fillipinos - so you have to take any account w/a grain of salt - since spain was eventually the victor - its easy to see why magellan only had 50 guy's to the PI's 5000.
fillipino knife and sword technique was influenced by both asia and spain - the majaphit empire was long before the spanish invasion - kun tao silat was in the region (indonesia and PI) as long as edged weapons - kun tao is chinese - the way of the hand - or empty hand fighting - fillipinos are in part maylay - heavy chinese influence. the southern (moro) style of sword fighting has its roots in arabic sword fighting. they use very heavy - hacking type blades and movements - the escrimadors or the north have more of a slashing and thrusting technique. when spain forced fillipinos to be sailors and school them in there military arts (sword play) the fillipinos found the swords to long and broke them into shorter swords to match their already formed system - as far as all the spanish terms in escrima - well check this - only some of the terms in some systems use the spanish - pekiti tersia uses the original ilongo not tagalic. spain was later influenced by french, italian and english sword fighting schools, each at different time was the height of swordsmanship. while still under spanish rule, everyone in the world went to a very thin rapier, almost a foil. the perfect sword was supposed to arch and bend in half when thrust against a wall. the theory was a thrust was faster than a hack or slash (thats why the swords got thinner,lighter from the broadsword). the fillipinos never went to that type weapon. as far as sword vs staff - i can give my personal experience. dan inosanto was always having us spar - pairing stick,staff,to handed stick (3.5-4 foot thin staff),knife. when i used dbl stick i beat staff, because i was able to close the distance and block blows faster then the staff could be swung (both single and dbl ended staff technique). however, when i used the staff, i used it as a spear, or thrusting weapon to stop the charge of my oppenant, then once stunned by the poke to the stomach, i was able to use the staff as a striking weapon
staff is also part of FMA - although somewhat different you can still find maylay and indonesian influences. and lets not forget krabi krbong, from thai land - all these countries where part of the majaphiat empire, and it stands to reason that the arts of the different countries would be blend since they were all part of the same army/empire - since spain didnt capture these other countries (holland, england, ect did) - the similarities seem to have been form another way - not via a common capture - more like was spread throughout S.E. asia through china and india- India is another major blood line that runs through the fillipino people. the indians went through the region on their way to china (india guro goes to china to teach shaolin monks) - india has its own indiginous stick,sword, and staff arts - latte' (sp?),gutka to name a few. poor undevelope countries always develope arts with the least cost possible - plenty of rattan all over for impact weapons - the edged weapons still play a great part in some S.E. asia countries. southern fillipines and indonesia still fight with swords -