I think it is true that strictly speaking, Machida's tactics are not pure karate. But his techniques do show a karate influence. In other words, he didn't just buy into the whole MT game by itself.
Traditional karate, as shown in the katas, is more about self defence situations. How to defend a bear hug, defend a wrist grab, a choke, etc. If there were freestyle fighting tactics in traditional karate,they don't seem to have been passed on. The different styles movement that we see in modern karate fighting are taken from a variety of sources, boxing being one, and modified accordingly.
So it is true that Machida's style is not pure traditional karate, but it is fair to say that he did develop his style from a karate base.
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I have always maintained that "Thai Boxing" (aka "Dutch Muay Thai") is better for MMA than Muay Thai because of its greater incorporation of boxing skills, not just punches but also footwork and defense, and karate techniques, specifically its style of kicks. All the while, it has not abandoned the clinch, one of "pure" Muay Thai's strengths, not the Thai kick and knee strategies.
Newaza freak
really........the three kyokushin fighters that went over to fight in Thailand originaly in the early 60s definitely borrowed a lot of techniques and ways of training for ring combat from the thais.The one who lost(who actualy fought the toughest thai fighter of all)created the toughest kickboxing gym in mejiro japan.He became a great japanese kickboxing trainer that influenced a lot of the kickboxing in holland.You think the thai pads and the long banana bag that is a staple signature training device for most K1 karate and kyokushin fighters today was developed in japan?
3 Kyokushin fighters went to thailand and more or less kicked ass. Only Kurosaki lost (he was stopped due to a cut eyebrow at the end of the last round. He himself regards it as a BS stoppage because he was ahead on points and the thais getting nerveous after losing the other 2 fights in the challenge by KO..
They didnt go there on a training trip. Its has to bee admitted that kyokushin higher fightingstances are influenced by muaythai stances, but no techniques.
Kurosakis own gym didnt teach thaiboxing, it taught his own style called “Shin Kakuto Jutsu”. He has said that he liked the muaythai competition rules, but tought the muay thai style was "sloppy".
Regarding the pads. who cares where they originated? Thaiboxing gyms tend to use boxing heavy bags. So do karate gyms, but if you look at oldschool karate they already had a version of them -Rolled straw mats hanging from a rope -some times with a wooden log as a core. Big deal. Nothing new under the sun.
Re: "it's not the karate Machida practices", "then why try to take credit for machida victories"
You dragged kyokushin into this, not me. I only replied to your post, as quoted. I have the highest respect for Lyoto as a Shotokan-ka.
Ive been tho thailand, I understand what 'real' muay thai is. What you see today is a hybrid form of muay thai and boxing. the requirements of grappling and little gloves make a difference in what you can do. the only person resembling muay thai in its authentic form is A Silva.
There are no "pure" styles, especially in MMA.
"Don't confuse the Karate practiced in Japan with the Karate business in America.
Karate in Japan is not for everyone,and every practitioner will not get a black belt...definetly not ANYONE under 18 years of age!
You have ignored this user. "
the same could be said about the Karate in Brazil.
Don't confuse the McDojo business type Karate practiced in America, with the seriously hard style Karate practiced in Brazil.
I practiced Karate for 16 years before I started training in Jiu-jitsu. The style I trained was Shotokan, and most of it was in Brazil as I was growing up. When I was 18 I moved to Canada and continued my training in the art. The difference in training is like night and day. People here are afraid of getting hurt and are quick to sue. That's why Karate sucks here.
We sparred every day in Karate class in Brazil. Sparring was the primary focus. Kata was secondary and we spent maybe 5 minutes a day on it. The training there is focused on self defense. When there was competition, you would see blood, teeth flying, and busted shins, hands, and face.
I remember well the side step movements Machida uses. We drilled that to death. Sidestep, in for the attack, out for the defense and circle.
Watching Machida fight brought back a lot of memories, and made me proud to be a Shotokan Karateka.
My girlfriend back in Brazil is an orange belt in Kyokushin Karate. She was able to not only defend herself, but disarm and beat the crap out of a knife wielding home invader with her Karate.
In Brazil, Karate works and is relevant. It's all about the training.
Kurosaki was a bad ass and his pupil T. fujiwara was one of the best IMO.
The point I was trying to make previously,is that,what people refer to as karate by what machida demonstrates in his matches by elusive lateral movement is not particular to any of karate styles like goju,wado,shotokan,shorin-ryu,ishin-ryu or even kyokushin for that matter but a by-product of the tournament in which he competes in.
American karate pionner Joe lewis(if I remember correctly)was one the very first to incorporate boxing lateral movement into tournament karate.At that time very few karate tournament practicioners used angles and elusive lateral movement in tournament karate.Joe lewis had been training this stuff at a boxing gym in L.A and added it to his karate strategy for tournaments.
Today,this strategy was extremely modified for the speed and timming incorporated at the elite levels of karate competitons and even in regular tournaments today it is the norm.This is exactly what machida was nurtured in for many years.In other words yes, it is a by product of karate but most directly from karate tournaments who borrowed that strategy originaly from boxing.It does not look like boxing because it was adapted for the speed play of tournament karate.
karate masters Higaona,Miyagi,Yamaguchi,Funakoshi and even Mas oyama himself did not practice this strategy at all which machida utilizes today for his victories.I just like giving credit were credit is due.Most people did not start training in karate when this strategy really did not exist in karate,therefore they go to a karate tournament and actually believe that it's in karate when it is really a recent development.Similar in some ways to why Helio gracie does not believe eduardo telles turtle guard or bjj is gracie jiujitsu.
"All TMA striking arts become kickboxing when they are instituted in a full contact manner."
agree
whoabro - "All TMA striking arts become kickboxing when they are instituted in a full contact manner."
agree
I'm not a student of Kick Boxing but if I'm not mistaken (and if I am I am sure someone will correct me) kickboxing does not allow kicks below the waist nor knees or elbows. Not sure how all striking arts turn into kickboxing if the above statement is true. I apologize if I am not correct about the kickboxing statement.
FreekHamakerFan - Effective striking really comes down to control of time, distance and angles. The technique you throw is secondary.
No matter what the style, this is the most fundamental truth about striking. It is the basis for everything I do all of the time. It comes down to having the footwork and composure to take advantage of these basics. The techniques can be very basic or very advanced combinations. Varying your targets and mixing in fakes will maximize your effectiveness but none of that really matters until you can control your range, timing and angles.
It really doesn't matter if it's Machida, GSP, Anderson Silva, Liddell or anyone else. It doesn't matter if it's Muay Thai (my favorite), Kyokushin, TKD, Kung Fu, American Kickboxing, Kempo, or whatever other striking art you do.
In application, these 3 characteristics become the cornerstone for winning.
"I apologize if I am not correct about the kickboxing statement."
that kind of kickboxing is what we like to call "shiny pants kickboxing," AKA american kickboxing. you are sort of correct, though, in that that's what many people think of as "kickboxing."
i think what the person i quoted meant is that in MMA there are no pure styles, just variations on kicking, punching, elbowing and kneeing- the core techniques in any kickboxing style.
Footwork dictates all timing & range. As said before, these are the keys to great striking, regardless of style or arena.
Sasci,
What you are describing is modern karate. When I said traditional karate lacked freefighting I meant the karate of the old Okinawan masters.
"All TMA striking arts become kickboxing when they are instituted in a full contact manner."
BS.
Thats like saying if i trained all my life in judo and then threw someone in a fight without a gi, it was actually "wrestling" i did.
Or if i was a wrestler then double legged someone in a judo comp, it was a "judo move."
Also wtf would karate become kickboxing just because its "full contact" if karate is also trained full contact?
"Effective striking really comes down to control of time, distance and angles. The technique you throw is secondary."
I wouldnt say this is completely true but i think its pretty much the general truth. Just like in grappling, its the balance, leverage, positional physics, etc as the foundation for all styles.
IMO the biggest underlying sentiment to the karate denial is that most people here just cant accept anything but kickboxing/boxing works for striking in MMA just like people used to not accept anything else but bjj for grappling.
Some styles can be stronger as as whole and more adaptable for MMA but that doesnt mean other styles cannot also work. People just like to look at things in absolute terms on here - its called being narrow minded or short sighted.
It also makes people feel better about the styles people are training. Its like that 3 week bjj guy back in 90s that wants to feel that bjj and only bjj is the only thing worth training in the entire universe.
The biggest irony is that karate was already represented well in K1 and "kickboxing" events before the UFC and modern MMA. The stories about the Kyokushin guys doing well in Thailand (if true) only solidify this.
These kind of anti-TMA attitudes actually mirror the TMA attitudes that these so-called anti-TMA people claim to detest so much.
Get a bjj blue belt and take Tyson in the streets, anyone?
Newaza freak - karate masters Higaona,Miyagi,Yamaguchi,Funakoshi and even Mas oyama himself did not practice this strategy at all which machida utilizes today for his victories.I just like giving credit were credit is due.Most people did not start training in karate when this strategy really did not exist in karate,therefore they go to a karate tournament and actually believe that it's in karate when it is really a recent development.Similar in some ways to why Helio gracie does not believe eduardo telles turtle guard or bjj is gracie jiujitsu.
Again, people neglect the fact that not all practitioners within a "style" practise or compete the same way and that trends emerge within styles over diff eras and styles evolve themselves thru the times.
Just like only in MMA does "gassing" and losing is supposed to mean you didnt actually lose.
"Karate in Japan is not for everyone,and every practitioner will not get a black belt...definetly not ANYONE under 18 years of age!"
They have karate programs in the public schools in Japan.
Only when one is talking of BJ Penn could a fighter "own" a guy in the fight he lost.
"Hey guys! BJ Penn punches harder than Wanderlei Silva! Just look how messed up Sherk's face was compared to Jardine's!"
"Thats like saying if i trained all my life in judo and then threw someone in a fight without a gi, it was actually "wrestling" i did."
But thats the point people are trying to make. Throwing someone is throwing someone regardless if you wrestled or did judo. Its two ways to reach the same objective. It all looks the same in the end
The difference is that thaiboxing is streamlined for fighting whereas Karate in general is more complicated because of katas and tradition. If Karate abandoned all that and simply trained to fight. What you would see is basically almost the same thing as Muay Thai. There is no big secret to any art. You can only kick and punch in so many ways