GSP and Machida show they are two of the best stand up guys out there and people start wondering why?
For years the typical MMA or full contact practitioner would tell you with absolute certainty that Muay Thai was the only real effective striking style. It was "proven" in the ring. Why else would all the top fighters use it? Those other styles don't work.
So we have seen fighters stand relatively still, banging it pout with each other, never really being able to explain why they weren't using certain techniques or movement strategies. They were just following what they were told.
What these non-thinkers didn't consider was that Muay Thai techniques developed under conditions that were different than a street fight or a MMA match. The specific rules of Muay Thai and the demands of the promoters were what made Muay Thai fighters into the rock-em-sock-em-robots we all know.
How many people can accurately state the scoring criteria for Muay Thai in Thailand? How many know that the promoters there will not sign fighters who don't stand and slug? Not many.
Now folks see Machida with his combination of karate kicks and beautiful movement and they don't know what to make of it. This is a great fighter people! You don't have to like him. You don't have to like his style. You are entitled to prefer some other fighter or some other style of fighting. But, you MUST acknowledge this:..
...WHAT MACHIDA DOES AND WHAT STARNES DID ARE TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS.
First I believe alot of arts have effective uses. However Muay Thai's effectiveness is not a myth. You have two guys who are exceptions to a "rule". Even watching GSP you can tell he uses some Muay Thai combonations. The popular named superman punch is an old Muay Thai cobra punch. Now if you had alot more karate guys breaking into the top ten then that would help karate schools fill up. One of the things that makes Muay Thai so good is the conditioning of the fighters that start at a very young age. Some of Machida's kicks were scoring points but snap kicks lack power and although kciking with the foot sounds loud to the slap, it doesn't compare with the stiffness of a good shin kick. There is alot science, technique and skill invovled in muay Thai and not just mindless banging. They are different weight classes but I don't think Machida could stand with Buakaw. Machida, GSP are good strikers but that doesn't make Muay Thai any less because of a small number of guys. Of course this is just my opnion.
the superman punch is also seen alot in tkd point fighting matches
Don't confuse the Karate practiced in Japan with the Karate business in America.
Karate in Japan is not for everyone,and every practitioner will not get a black belt...definetly not ANYONE under 18 years of age!
sekiya - Don't confuse the Karate practiced in Japan with the Karate business in America.
Karate in Japan is not for everyone,and every practitioner will not get a black belt...definetly not ANYONE under 18 years of age!
very true, the same can be said about the difference between American TKD and Korean TKD
Muay Thai is judged by the most brutal strikes.. punches don't add up in the scoring as kicks, knees and especially elbows. Also, the reason the "stand in front of eachother" and "slug it out" is because its seen as a sign of weakness to run away from an attack.. its a rough sport and I see it as the most effective striking art.. I may be biased, just my 2 pennies
"If it looks 'pretty' it wasn't Muay Thai. It has to look exact and punishing 100% of the time"
-Samart Payakaroon
I would wager that OG's like Saekson and Samart would dismantle %100 of the karate guys out there and they're long retired.
BuakawPorFavor -
I would wager that OG's like Saekson and Samart would dismantle %100 of the karate guys out there and they're long retired.
Wasn't there a series of challenge fights between 5 Japanese Kyokushin fighters and 5 Thai boxers, if I remember correctly the Kyokushin guys won 4-1? It was when Mas Oyama was still alive and helped Kyokushin make a name for itself.
Que the haters now to come on now and say that "technically ,what Machida does is not karate"
People get black belts in karate in Japan at high school age ALL the time.
There are badass fight schools and weaker dojos there just like here.The high school programs create athletes that are really limited but very good at a few basic things.
GSP trains muay thai with Phil Nurse in NY.
Stryfe - Machida, GSP are good strikers but that doesn't make Muay Thai any less because of a small number of guys.
I dont think that is the point that is trying to be made.
I like GSP, and think he's the best in the game, but it's not like he's impossible to hit like Machida.
GSP has got great stand-up, but it's more a product of good striking mixed with ridiculous timing on his shoots.
Cung Le has got some fancy moves, but it's not like he was that much better than Shamrock in the stand-up.
Max
k
GSP has a karate background, but has been training Muay Thai with Phil Nurse for years.
Effective striking really comes down to control of time, distance and angles. The technique you throw is secondary. Machida is a master of controlling those three factors.
Imagine if Muay Thai was trained as a solo kata. Or maybe the base of their training was one step sparring. How effective would it be? They spar and they have crazy conditioning and they had that when the other MA fighters didn't.
The big problem I see is that people don't think. They don't understand why they are doing what they are doing and simply follow the trend, in this case, the trend is Thai boxing.
BuakawPorFavor is correct. Backing up in Muay Thai fights can lose you the match on that factor alone, especially after you took a hard shot. This tendency of the judges and others are what make Muay Thai what it is.
You do not have to study MT to learn how to strike effectively.
Fighters like chuck liddel,gsp and lyoto machida who all trained karate as kids are going to naturaly use some of those very same techniques that they learned and drilled as kids.There is no denying thou,the fact that they all train today to acquire those means thru other training methods not associated with karate.Most noobs,do not understand that the lateral movement that machida uses,even thou he used it extensively in karate and even thou it,has been used in karate tournaments for a few long years now,did not develop from karate itself but was borrowed from the lateral movement of boxing and adopted for tournament karate.
If you do not believe me ,then find me any karate practicioner before the 60s on film that was using any lateral movement.None of the founding fathers of karate or even the traditionalist karate practicioners used lateral movement back then.What do you think the bruce lee was fuss was all about?None of them ever used thai pads,mits or even spar in the ring to prepare themselves for matches like machida,gsp or chuck does.Sure the speed and timming that machida uses was honed in karate tournaments as a kid but that karate tournament enviorement was open to borrow from certain outside tactics and strategies from other fighting influences.Most of the founding fathers of karate never did any karate like those three mentioned above.The knee that machida landed on tito can not be used in most karate tournaments in wich machida competed in and is not basicaly found in his shotokan katas or training,atleast not thrown in that way.
I would not doubt that he developed that knee strike during practicing with thai pads in the gym, as it's never really practiced during shotokan karate training or his style of karate competitons.Oh and before anyone mentions the word kyokushin I seriously suggest they do a good review of it's history in order to realize just how much they(kyokushin)did borrow from mauythai.
The main problem with karate is that the training system for is slower to create a good fighter than the pure sport of muay thai.
Very few karate instructors (especially top level ones) would consider letting a wrestler into the dojo and teaching him kicking &punching in preparation for MMA, without requiring that he went through the grades like any other.
And admittedly karate teach a lot of things not directly applicable in the ring -or even for fighting purposes outside of the ring. We might argue tha values of those things, but fact is that there are a lot of things that are a waste of time if you just need to get into sport in 6 moths time. That is one of tha major reason we see so few karate guys in the MMA ring/cage. The guys with karate background has started in karate and expanded their skill from there. A wrestler/BJJ/Sambo/whatever guy would look at a top karate gym and say "pretty good, but where do I sign up for the crash course" and then go to a Muay thai or kickboxing gym.
But they probably wont go to a Muaythai gym that focus on traditional Muay Boran.
Lets face it. On the top level, there is not that much difference where you learned your stuff. A knockdown karate fighting gym will train with pads&bags and do more or less the same drill as the sanda gym, MT gym or kickboxing gym. There are a few flavours in the techniques that differ here and there, but being hit by one version is just as bad as being hit by the other.
Newaza freak -Oh and before anyone mentions the word kyokushin I seriously suggest they do a good review of it's history in order to realize just how much they(kyokushin)did borrow from mauythai.
Trust me. I have studied the history of kyokushin..
And kyokushin borrowed much MUCH less than some Muay thai fans would like to believe. They didnt get knees from them. They didnt get kicks using the shins from them. At most influences from MT caused a shift in focus to the techniques already found in karate that previously had low priority..
Btw. Its getting really annoying with these extra spaces in the text that the new forum insist on putting in.
Kolsyrade - Newaza freak -Oh and before anyone mentions the word kyokushin I seriously suggest they do a good review of it's history in order to realize just how much they(kyokushin)did borrow from mauythai. Trust me. I have studied the history of kyokushin..And kyokushin borrowed much MUCH less than some Muay thai fans would like to believe. They didnt get knees from them. They didnt get kicks using the shins from them. At most influences from MT caused a shift in focus to the techniques already found in karate that previously had low priority..Btw. Its getting really annoying with these extra spaces in the text that the new forum insist on putting in.
really........the three kyokushin fighters that went over to fight in Thailand originaly in the early 60s definitely borrowed a lot of techniques and ways of training for ring combat from the thais.The one who lost(who actualy fought the toughest thai fighter of all)created the toughest kickboxing gym in mejiro japan.He became a great japanese kickboxing trainer that influenced a lot of the kickboxing in holland.You think the thai pads and the long banana bag that is a staple signature training device for most K1 karate and kyokushin fighters today was developed in japan?
Another thing is that kyokushin does not represent all of karate around the world and it's not the karate Machida practices,so if kyokushin is represented by 5% of the whole karate population and it's not even the karate machida practcies,then why try to take credit for machida victories?Machida tactics and strategies are not even part of the kyokusin syllabus,as a matter of fact they are not even part of the shotokan(machida style)syllabus but instead part of the karate tournament circuit syllabus in which machida use to compete in.