I'm training with a friend wrestling takedowns for MMA. We have the USA Wrestling Syllabus tapes to work from. My plan is to drill the moves by listing the various situations and best takedown attempt for each one. The best takedown is one that has a high chance of succeeding even if you are not a NCAA Champ and a low chance of getting you injured if it doesn't. I don't necessarily want to attempt a takedown unless the opportunity is there, not attempting a takedown is an option if it is not likely to work or creates a big weakness. We first want to drill the situations where the opponent leaves himself the open the most. So my question is, what situations do you see most often in MMA where you think to yourself, "Man, he left himself wide open for _______." The more specifc, the better.
BTW, I have read recent and archived threads. So any new ideas or things you haven't seen mentioned are best (has it all been covered?). The biggest difference is I would not necessarily seek out the takedown but rather take the best opportunity given (which might be something else).
Am no wrestler, but at class o satuarday we were working shooting a double from the opponent over committing a strike(jab/cross) anticipating the strike and catching him off balance. That works for me. Was a good archived thread about shooting in mma if you can find it.
Jason
Da Specimen, thanks for referencing my thread (hehe)!
as it stands right now, i'd say the highest prob takedowns in mma are the double (though most in the sport do more of a tackle than actually shooting a double) or dumps from the clinch.
i have a couple reasons why i think this is the case, but you'll have to wait for later. gotta get to work, i'll be back to post more.
no shame
okay, i'm back.
i said already that the most common shot in mma is the double. here are a couple of reasons why-
1. the first wrestlers of any caliber that we saw in mma were at a very high level where generally, only the basic shit works. i.e., we don't see many flashy moves in the olympics, but rather very basic techs that are well set up and executed. these same wrestlers brought the basics to mma and a double was just there for them. this led to people all over learning to shoot and counter the double.
2. the other most common takedowns are dumps from the clinch. think of Tito dropping Tanner to illustrate this. the reason i call them dumps is because i want to make sure that my guys know that these are different than most throws (i'm not throwing him over me like in freestyle). since being in the clinch can reduce the opponents striking effectiveness and keep you a little safer, this is also very popular.
why don't we see other shots? some of this is due to popularity, some is due to safety. for instance, fireman's carries CAN work, but would you want to risk paul herrera's fate when he fought goodridge? neither would i. (there are times that i use and teach a fireman's, but only the outside variation) how about high crotches- good techs, but if we set these up like we do in wrestling, we'll catch a knee to our nose.
on to popularity... the low singles and sweeping singles simply have not gained the same popularity as the double. they can be just as effective as doubles though (sometimes more effective). also, if you like leg-locks, low singles take you right into leg-locks.
remember that most wrestlers learn the double as their first takedown. they will drill this hundreds or even thousands of times before they ever learn another series of takedowns. i was the opposite, my coach looked at my body type (long, lanky, and clumsy) and decided that i should shoot singles. many years later, i can still shoot doubles, but not as well as singles.
after all that, i would say, learn your double leg series and learn your low single series. drill each tech from these 1000s of times and learn the others for information sake (although ou will probably not find them as useful in mma).
no shame
Obviously I'm not nearly the wrestler that many others on this board are, but I've found that for amateur MMA, you can set up a hell of a sweep single with a roundhouse kick.
I fight southpaw, so I'm a mirror image of most guys I fight. I can usually score a lead leg round house kick to the thigh, step in and have the single up right beside me.
Shawn
pred- i hope you're joking about the jap whizzer, aka arm-spin as being a hig percentage takedown.
it's not bad with lower class guys, but against better comp, forget it.
no shame
i hit it all the damn time but i wouldnt call it high percentage. the biggest thing i see is that fighters are constantly open for ducks in the clinch. another thing i would like to see more is elevation. the biggest two problems with double legs (the way they are done in mma) is getting kneed or guillotined. both of these are much more avoidable by lifting your opponent. very few people know how to defend once their feet leave the floor
Thanks for the replies. I have some more questions, and any you could answer, I'd appreciate. I'm interested to know when you would choose a double over a single. Noshame says you should learn both, implying there would be times where one is a better choice. It seems to me that the double would involve more risks (guillotine, knee to the face). If you shoot the low single on your opponent's lead leg with your head to the outside, what counter-strikes do you leave yourself open to? Is the double preferred because the single is harder to finish (I seem to remember Sak having a helluva time finishing his on Metzger)? Also, it would seem the double lands you in your opponent's full guard more often. The Wrestling Syllabus says that you should use a single when your opponent is coming to you and a double when he isn't. Is it that simple or is there more to it? I have some more questions but I'll hold them for later.
holy cow- lotsa questions! no prob.
"It seems to me that the double would involve more risks (guillotine, knee to the face)."
they both have those risks when they are countered or not well set-up.
"If you shoot the low single on your opponent's lead leg with your head to the outside, what counter-strikes do you leave yourself open to?"
low-singles are usually shot with the head to the inside. either way, you leave yourself open to kicks if you get the shot but don't climb quick enough. you leave yourself open to a myriad of strikes if the shot is stopped (i like the head inside and close to his body to reduce the power of any strikes he may throw in case my shot is stalled). elbows to the side of the head are possible on either shot if ou are stopped.
the key is to never stop working for the takedown. don't just get ahold of a leg and hang on, DRIVE, DRIVE, DRIVE until the shot is finished. then he can't worry about strikes- he has to think about countering your takedown.
"Is the double preferred because the single is harder to finish (I seem to remember Sak having a helluva time finishing his on Metzger)?"
believe it or not, i haven't seen that fight. i do know that Sak had a helluva time finishing the takedown on Silva (first fight) and i believe i know why. Sak got an early flash knockdown on Silva and then went on a flurry for close to a minute. try sprinting for a minute sometime. when he wasn't able to finish the fight, he abandoned the striking and shot the takedown, but had very little energy left ot finish the takedown. maybe a little simplified, but i doubt there's a better explanation.
"Also, it would seem the double lands you in your opponent's full guard more often."
true. you can finish in side mount with a double, but with a single, he is more likely to get open guard at best (probably spider or butterfly). PLUS, as i mentioned earlier, the single leads to nice transitions to leg-locks.
"The Wrestling Syllabus says that you should use a single when your opponent is coming to you and a double when he isn't. Is it that simple or is there more to it?"
disregard this for MMA. remember that the wrestling syllabus is written for WRESTLING. you are not allowed to move backward in wrestling. you are allowed to move backward in mma, this changes things greatly.
for all practical purposes, the opponent needs to be coming toward you to get a good, clean shot (hence the stalling calls in wrestling when an opponent moves backward).
re-read the shooting in mma thread if my terminology escapes you: i prefer a double if he is aggressive, adn a single if he is passive/neutral. if he has a defensive posture, i prefer to clinch and dump.
no shame
I suggest you take more wrestling classes and compete in freestyle wrestling if you want to improve your takedowns. There is no high percentage takedown, just skill.
Usually when I tie up with someone I know whether I should try a head lock, body lock or a throw, or if I feel resitance I will drop down for a single or double, and if they counter that to fire-man carry and so on.
To be a good wrestler means you have to be a good chain-wrestler, that means you try one move if that dosen't work, you try another and another till one works.
I hope that helps.
Noshame,
Great responses. Ok, two more questions and I'll let you go. I decided to start focusing on developing a good double first. You say to go off of forward movement or striking by the opponent. My question is, what range works best? My intuition is that obviously your opponent can be too far, but can he ever be too close? How do you feel about looking at his hips and shooting when you any forward movement in those when he is within range? My feeling is you can't strike with any power without moving the hips and the hips are what move first.
Camal,
Man, I wish I could take classes. Until I get into grad school, it has to be me and a friend tape training in my backyard after workouts. Still, until then, something is better than nothing, I figure.
"My feeling is you can't strike with any power without moving the hips and the hips are what move first."
i look a lot at the relationship of his hips to his shoulders along with his movement.
if he's leaned forward and moving forward (aggressive), SHOOT!
leaned back and moving back (defensive), don't shoot, work on cornering and setups.
standing somewhat straight or slightly leaned forward (passive or neutral)- you may get the shot, but you better be sure it's well set up.
it's not just his movement, but also the manner in which he stands that helps/hinders his ability to counter.
"My intuition is that obviously your opponent can be too far, but can he ever be too close?"
well, kinda. once into a tight clinch, your doubles and singles are out. work on dumps, ducks, slide-by's, trips, etc. best range for doubles or low singles is about from the kicking range (far end) to about the elbowing range (close end).
no shame
Alright, that's all the questions I have. Thanks again.
noshame knows his stuff, great thread
Now if only Chip could still archive this so I don't ever have to type it all again! lol
no shame