I think both the Lt and the guys criticizing him have missed the point.
Ground fighting for combatives is about CONTROL. Controlling your enemies weapons (hands and feet, and anything he can do with them) and his mobility, as well as keeping him from controlling yours. This is the primary focus we use in teaching ground control for law enforcement.
The Ranger he mentions should very much have controlled the arms first. That keeps the bad guy from drawing his own weapon or taking one of yours. It also prevents a lot of reversals because he cannot use his arms appropriately. Not for a key lock or submission hold, though. Every grappler out there has fought out of full bore submissions and continued to fight. Men have had bones shattered by bullets or impact and continued to fight using those arms. Submission does not in any way equal max damage.
The arms CONTROLLED, he should THEN have pulled his knife. You would be amazed how helpless someone is while mounted, with one arm pinned under his body or the mounted man's knee, the other wrapped up in a control hold against the mounted man's body, and the mounted man with a free hand to deploy the knife - while remaining on top.
My thoughts on the subject.
Huge thanks to Mr. Larsen! This is a fantastic thread!
On the bjj part, if it is permitted to say, Who are you training with. Is it mostly Gi or no-gi? sport or valu tudo?
Gerald Boggs
once stupid enough to jump from perfectly good airplanes.
Hisho I think you are right on the money.
As for who I train BJJ with, I have been training with Jacare Cavalcante for the last few years. I trained for a long time with Rorion, Royce and Caique. I have also trained with Marcelo Alonso.
Matt
Matt,
I am still interested in your adapting Sambo to your training.
Please share any insights.
Marc
Matt,
If you ever get back to Fort Lewis we should arrange a meet.
Jason,
When I entered the marine corps in 1884 I only recall being taught breakfalls, Osotogari, Seoinage etc. There was no hand-to-hand training happening in the grunts. Even when I was stationed in mainland Japan and then later in Okinawa, I was the only man in my battalion who did any martial arts training. We did have periodic boxing smokers. When I came in to the Army in 1988 I didn't have to go to basic or AIT. I went to airborne school and then straight to the Ranger Regiment. There was absolutely no hand-to-hand done in my first several years in the Regt. Except what I was doing on my own which was, as I said above, traditional martial arts. We also had a boxing team for a while at 1/75 but only for guys who were into that sort of thing. We used to put on boxing smokers with the marines from Paris Island. Everyone's attitude both in the marines and in the Rangers in those days was that combatives was a waste of time.
Marc,
At first SOMBO was more of a model of a successful program than anything else, mostly because there just wasn't many SOMBO teachers that you could find back then. As the system matured, and we had more contact with SOMBO teachers, it began to influence our training method more. We currently teach Biomechanical exercise derived mostly from the Russian martial arts, to our more advanced students. The main reason for this is to make them better teachers. When you get that student who just doesn't move right, they have a tool to improve his movement patterns.
Along with Kali and the movement patterns from biomechanical exercise, some of the weapons fighting patterns, such as leveraged disarming techniques, fit in nicely. It also helps to unify some of the techniques and concepts of ground fighting, standup fighting and contact weapon fighting.
Matt
You've been serving since 1884....you must have seen some fantastic battles!
(LOL!)
Mostly political battles. Who do you train with up there? I would love to meet you next time I come.
Matt
I train Judo and submission grappling, mainly with Obukan and some cross training in BJJ when the opportunity arises. We are hoping to get an LE related group going here soon with Don Gulla's Arrestling.
MLarsen and others thanks for the contributions:
I feel compelled to add my impressions (if not a little late) of the techniques we were trained with in basic - having attended only last Feb. (We were told we were only the third cycle into the newer "Gracie method"). I had had at the time about 3 years experience in BJJ, 6 years in Thai-boxing, FMA and various other arts.
In a nutshell I found the Drill Sgt's abilities and knowledge of the techniques - at most times laughable if not embarrassing to look at. Ever the mindful Pvt. E-none I kept my mouth shut.
While we learned armbars at a very rudimentary level, the choke we were demonstrated, wasn't a choke, nor a lock, nor could I tell you what it was. Perhaps an aggressive hug from behind? A majority of those drills which I recognized as positional drills only were taught as being combative - and to be done at combat speed. We did learn a plausible take down. Injuries in the short period of training - more like 6 hours instead of 15 - did occur, one approx. 140 solider was paired with another at approx. 230 - 240 the result - some broken ribs.
That is not to say the new module was garbage, I do feel the positional information as you have argued was of use. Whether retained, I don't know, but definately dumbed down - "this is the mount, now punch..." If this is what was sought to be accomplished; success.
I have a couple of questions of MLarsen (if not too late):
Was the "The Gracie Method" (as it was described to me) purchased from the Gracie family?
What are the requirements of attending your school?
How does the Army encourage the competition, or compete at all;in respect of the success you described with Sambo?
Thanks,
SPC Schmaltz
DLIFLC
MLarsen-
It's more about teaching them what their options are. You can debate whether this or that option is better or even stupid, because you understand what the options are. That is far more than most soldiers can do. A successful system educates them as to what the options are.
Double post:
SPC Schmaltz, Let me first say that you sound like exactly the kind of person we want in the Army.
You have hit on one of the biggest problems facing anyone who would teach the Army to fight. The number of new soldiers that come through basic every year is in the neighborhood of 100,000. The number of Drill sergeants army wide is many thousands There are over 400,00 thousand soldiers on active duty and hundreds of thousands more in the guard and reserve. Imagine what a task it is to put teachers in place.
Imagine also that a different branch of the Army controls each post that has Initial entry training. Do you mind if I ask where you went to BCT?
We hired the Gracies, specifically Rorion and Royce for several years. Much of what we do is derived from what they taught us. It is also true however that we teach many things that they do not and that both our focus and area of expertise is quite different from theirs.
As for competitions, we currently hold about four post championships on Ft. Benning per year. The dates correspond to the latter fazes of training in the Infantry Captains Career Course and Infantry Officer Basic Course. The idea is to send them out to the rest of the Army knowing that combatives tournaments are a normal part of soldiering. The Ranger Regiment has had two Regimental championships and the 82nd is planning their second. We intend to have a series of open tournaments held at the various posts and within a couple of years from now an Army championship. It is just a matter of time.
Matt Larsen
SPC Schmaltz and SFC Larsen,
First I am glad to hear that the Army has a "problem" with high numbers of recruits. The problem with DS to recruit ratio has alway been around--I don't see that changing. However, I still think the point I made (and SFC Larsen made) is still being missed. Technical proficiency in combatives training, especially for the non-combat arms MOS's is probably not what the point of teaching combatives is (correct me if I am wrong Matt). Instilling Warrior Spirit, I think, is why we teach combatives. Now, that being said, how, if the training is not OSUT, do you teach combatives meaningfully in eight weeks when you have PMI, D&C, and all the skill level one tasks to teach? You can't. All you can do is familiarize the recruit with it and hope that his squad leader is a recent BNCOC grad who will take the basic knowledge of combatives that the private learns in BCT and add to it and refine it.
I attended the 42 hour course at Benning in 2000. I was one of only two officers in the class. The rest of class consisted entirely of OSUT drill Sergeants, most of whom had EIB's and Ranger TABS. For one week, we scrapped our asses off, and when we tested out of the 13 core moves at the end of the class, I had a real warm and fuzzy about everyone's knowledge and their ability to pass it on. But, in that week I heard stories from these guys about additional duties, training distractors, and how thinly stretched they were that made me thankful I was not a Drill Sergeant. Sadly, these guys were not free from their DS duties just b/c they were attending the combatives train-the-trainer course. Two of my class mates had duty the night before, met Mel Gibson and Sam Elliot that morning and took them on a road march to the range and then qualified them with the M16 (they were filming "We Were Soldiers.....", and then had to be at combatives training for 0800. I was TDY and got to sleep in every morning.
SPC Schmaltz, I am sorry your experience learning combatives in BCT was a let down, but try to put yourself in the cadre's shoes. You might be happy to know that I got to train with the 509th PIR at Fort Polk for two weeks, and those guys were so fired up about the combatives training they got in BNCOC, that they were practicing nearly every day. Hell, you would have two trying to choke one another out while we were in line to draw weapons. When I taught combatives at OCS, one of the candidates was a purple belt under JJ Machado, and who certainly made me look like a novice. Know what? I made him my AI. Use what you know to advance the cause. Things are getting better.
SFC Larsen, once again thanks for all you did for me and your other students (and the Army for that matter).
Be all you can be!
Mahfouz
Thank you for the responses SFC Larsen, and CPT Mahfouz:
I look forward to responding more in depth, shortly;
To answer your question SFC Larsen it was Ft. Jackson.
CPT. Mahfouz, that sounds exactly like a course I want to be part of!
SPC Schmaltz
PS
Is it slightly ironic that Modern Army Combatives is on the history thread?
Nope, it's history in the making. Plus the people here are polite, that makes for a nice discussion.
Gerald Boggs
bobthethinker, good point.
CPT. Mahfouz, I can't say that my experience was at all disappointing or a let down. I took more interest in what the methodology was behind it; in instructing such a large group - that in some cases was not understanding or interested (nor for some willing) in knowing the techniques as they were presented. I have seen this in some law enforcement seminars I've attended and in Krav Maga schools I've been to. The result may be unrefined and sloppy, but is quite understandable as to what is being sought after.
As you put it: "All you can do is familiarize the recruit with it and hope that his squad leader is a recent BNCOC grad who will take the basic knowledge of combatives that the private learns in BCT and add to it and refine it."
I do agree from the little I've seen and know - that things will get better. I spend every spare minute training with available and experienced partners and am constantly encouraging others to come train. I just wish my platoon sgt. would be more interested/convinced in doing PT sessions in this fashion.
SPC Schmaltz
SPC Schmaltz,
Where are you stationed now? Maybe I can point you toward some like-minded guys.
Ft. Jackson is a tough nut but we are making steady progress.
Matt Larsen
This is a GREAT! thread Guys!!
Thanx so much MLarsen for having started this one.
I downloaded FM 3-25.150 a few months ago, and had a lot of questions that have already been answered here.
EbolaMonkey: my daughter (who trains in BJJ) just completed BCT at Ft Jackson and had the same observations you had.Like you she kept her mouth shut and went along. Mostly the ratio of Drill Sgt instructors to students was very low.I do have one more questions though. Are the BCT Combative Instructors certified under the Gracie G.R.A.P.L.E.
Law enforcement/military Program? They ask for recert every 6 months to keep instructors current.Hooah! to all ARMY dogs!!
There is no affiliation with the G.R.A.P.L.E. program, in fact the training methodology is quite different. We make no attempt to teach any scenario specific techniques, such as arresting or restraining, but only try to lay a foundation for further learning. There are subsequent courses to put people with more experience in place to supervise and insure the quality of training.
IMO one of the primary reasons other programs have failed is the idea that you can go to a course of any length and become "certified". Imagine if you were going to put your kid in a martial arts class and found that the teachers only training was a four or five week course several years earlier. Our plan is to get people to train for the long hall. The idea is that the first course is pretty basic, and also pretty tough. Who then do you think shows up several months latter for the second course? First it is people who were not scared off by the first course. Second it is mostly people who have been training on their own. The same is true for the subsequent courses. In this way by the time a student has eight or ten weeks of institutional training, he actually has several years of training. Our courses then serve more to point the students in the right direction and as a foundation for training than as a "certification".
Matt Larsen