Hapa kabar saudara wiro (sic?)
"Its hard to trully train for the street"
I agree. Street people are very unpredictable. You never know just what they are carying or capable of doing. Back in my home country, a group 17-yo HS students are far more dangerous than the regular/organised criminal. Why? because the thugs are very picky regarding their target while the kids will take on anyone (read: the students of the "opposing" schools) at random.
The thugs may be setting up a hold up at the traffic light but the kids will stop the whole traffic when they fight other students with stones, knives and machettes. Sounds too crazy? well..it is
High Roller,
Relative to the street Mind Set - I think Tony Blauer's stuff is the best (www.TonyBlauer.com) . I also recomend SAmmy Franco(www.SammyFranco.com), Marc Animal McYoung, Richard Dimitri (www.Senshido.com), Peyton QUinn, and Geoff Thompson.
THE BEST guy to look at for safe but HARTD CORE street orriented training / sparring from a physical perspective is Walt Lysak Jr. (www.RealityCOnnection.com)
Joe
Thanks a lot!!!! I'll check those out.
GoongNoi,
TampaNHB is young and I admire his convictions. When I was 18 - I knew everything there was to know too, you can't argue with blind faith. If he ever faces a REAL threat, and then really introspects on what transpires (win or lose) his eyes will open.
Skpotamus,
As somebody who has actually BEEN stabbed, I can assure you that facing a knife for real MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
High Roller,
You bring up a VERY intersting subject.
All my bodyguard work wasn't for "god guys" and carrying a weapon was necessary. But having training and conviction is necessary and choosing WHEN to carry and when NOT to carry is important. (I no longer carry conceiled.)
... No on to the interesting stuff.
Your success and confidence with Kickboxing skills as opposed to "Combat" orriented training.
Consider this - perhaps your confidence and success in the street becuase of you Kickboxing skills is not the result of the "style" so much as it is the result of the "Psychology" of the training.
When training in Muay Thai - you Hit and Get Hit with REAL contact. This means you practice REALLY how NOT to eat punches and how TO land with power.
Not only does this provide you with the Technique, Speed, Timing, and Power to engage an opponant - it gives you the CONFIDENCE to know that you can hurt your opponant and the knowledge (and conditioning) to survive some punnishment.
Most people don't train "Real Combat" the same way.
If you did "Real Contact" street fight practice, wouldn't you develop the same skills and confidence with a more apropriate tool box.
From guys like Tony Blauer, Walt Lysak, Peyton Quinn, and others I have learned how to focus Stret Orriented Training toward reality.
We do what we call "Urban Tactics" which includes several kinds of "No Point", "No Ref" training.
We wear MMA style gloves and EVERYTHING is legal. We hit, but pull some - we bite, pinch, eye gouge with control.
We alos do the same thing with safety gear but full contact.
We do both of the above with training blades (Hard Plastic Marking Replica's of REAL Combat Blades.)
We also do the abopve with Guns - 8mm Blank Firing Weapons and CO2 powered BaintBall/Pellet firing GLock replicas.
As SPORT training equates to Self Defense, Muay Thai / San Shou is probably the best base. But I believe any time you train for a sport you program yourself not to do certain things and you accept that your opponant WILL NOT do those things too.
You also have a different mind set, you don't feel that you life is threatened and you are mantally prepared (you bow, touch gloves, etc) - there is CONCENT.
I'm not saying that making the choice betwen training for Sport and Training for Street is a "One or the Other" decision.
All I'm saying is that it's important to remember to give some thought to the difference both mentally and physically. (Example: As Kickboxers we don't train to fight from our backs.)
Example: While working a Bouncer at a Ski Area in Vermont, one night we had a problem with a guy wearing a "State Golden Glves Champion" Team Jacket. We got him outside but he wouldn't leave - he was BUSTIN for a fight and there was no talking him out of it - he was yelling and swing at everyone.
I put my hands up and said OK, then reached out my hand as if to touch gloves. He REFLEXIVLY began to extend his hand and it gave me the time to shoot in, take him down and hold him until the waggon showed up. (No body got hurt.)
I don't even let my guys drop there hands to stop the bag from swinging - the bag represents an opponent, when it's swinging in it represents a MOVING opponent - and dropping your hands 10 times in a round at an "on rushing opponant" is teaching you body and your reflexes that it's OK to drop your hands under attack.
Benny "The Jet" used to say - "WHat you practice is what you'll do" !!
Train Hard - Be Safe,
Joe
tampaNHB, there was an article in black belt magazine that was called "realities of the blade" or something like that. It had some stats on knife fights, inlcuding some personal accounts of knife fights, Most of the fight accounts showed the knife as havign very little deciding factors in the outcomes. IE, one story about a guy being attacked by two guys, the attackee had a knife with a 4 inch blade, he stabbed one guy in the ribs several times, but still got the shit kicked out of him.
On one of those fox reality shows they had on recently (about three months ago), there was a store surveilance video of a guy trying to rob the place. He fought with the security guard, they showed the replay in slow mo with a counter, the security guard was stabbed 17 times in the body( mainly the ribs, but a couple of times in the stomach area) before he subdued the robber. After the adrenaline wore off, he went to the hospital, the robber went to the hospital too.
The knife isn't exactly the end-all in a confrontation, be careful using one to defend yourself.
About the military/war thing, remember, the way wars used to be fought, and how they are now fought are VERY different. As example, Jiu-Jitsu was developed as a form of empty hand combat hundreds of years ago, now it isn't the same art, it has many branches and new applications, for instance, groundfighting aka BJJ, BJJ would not be a good style wearing a backpack and gun, the same could probably be said for MT, the war techniques probably involved weapons work and the empty hand was the back up to keep you alive long enough to pick up another weapon, what is done today has been changed to another format.
Joe,
I check out the Senshido forum daily, as well as checked out Blaur's stuff. Our gym teaches a CQB course, as well as more tailored street applicable courses...what I've heard is that you definetly need to train without consent, if you're training for an "everday" type of situation. An ego fight is one thing...but being jumped by a real criminal is totally a different thing. What sort of drills do you folks do in your Urban Tactics courses?
Ted
TampaNHB...
I think the misunderstanding here is that we are arguing over semantics, more or less.
What is trying to be stated here is that the modern ring sport of Muay Thai is NOT the same art that Thai soldiers used to complement their weapons fighting during battle.
Even Muay Thai's precursors were not the same art used by soldiers.
The thing is that the modern sport of Muay Thai has been evolving from a battlefield art to ring sport for a couple of centuries. Each incarnation of the sport moved further and further away from its battlefield roots. Even the name of the sport has changed many times over the years. If I am correct, the name Muay Thai is not much more than 100 years old.
What is now Muay Thai used to be a form of NHB fighting (for lack of a better description), including throws and ground fighting.
So, I think what everyone is trying to say, and I think everyone including you agrees upon, is that what is now Modern Muay Thai has the same roots as the battlefield arts, but is not really the same.
Khun Kao
The funny thing about bjj, muay thai, and wrestling is that they are all sports, yet they can be deadly if used properly, I was a bouncer for a year and I'm not going to act like I know shit but I think for the street you need three things, closing the distance-(striking, wrestling) the clinch(muay thai, judo, wrestling) and ground fighting (bjj). If you want to be complete that is. I don't care what anybody says, every fight I've been in that hasn't resulted in knock out has went to the ground with one of us on our backs, if you know bjj your life becomes easier. I'm not saying its smart for the street, but you will use it- I'm not even touching the multiple attacker senerio-because I think any senerio against multiple attackers that aren't total pussies is a losing effort for you. By the way the only time I went up against a knife, my right pointer finger got cut down to the bone
The "Every Fight" ends on the ground statistic is common..... But in my years on the hjob (and HUNDREDS of altercations) I only ended up on the ground twice. (Once I was blind tackled and the other was by a college wrestler) .
I think the risk is greater now than it was then because more people have exposure to the ground. We training in groundfighting - and we train ALOT how to avoid being taken down.
On the ground, whether your on the top or on the bottom is the last choice in a street fight.
Joe
www.WMAC.com
www.StopRape.com
I totaly agree with you Joe, I do think it was the method of training. Its hard to trully train for the street. It sounds like what your doing is about as close as you can get without killing each other. A pellet gut at close range is no fun at all!!! I'm a fan of Tony B and I'll have to look into the other guys you mentioned.
I still think sport fighting has a lot to offer in several different ways.
A. It develops attributes like power, speed, timing, ect. Or to put it another way, if you have no power in your techniques its better to find out in the ring then in the street. Its also a venue to test SOME of your stuff against new people (who you dont normally train with).
B. I personally think it develops character, its an avenue for getting out aggression, and its fun.
Anyway its great to be part of the fourm.
P.S. I would say about 70% of fights I have seen involved some ground fighting. The other 30% involved one person on the ground while the other(s) kicked the krap out of him.
I didn't realise people can speak indo here? Apa kabar semua? Saya lahir di Indo tapi da lama tingal di Australia.
Hey Wiro- Lu Medan Lang?? Lu tongkim kin talok? Wat a surprise to meet someone here from the same hometown! haha. I havent been back since I moved to Aus. Can u email me @ tongbei@hotmail.com.
I didn't realise people can speak indo here? Apa kabar semua? Saya lahir di Indo tapi da lama tingal di Australia.
Hey Wiro- Lu Medan Lang?? Lu tongkim kin talok? Wat a surprise to meet someone here from the same hometown! haha. I havent been back since I moved to Aus. Can u email me @ tongbei@hotmail.com.
Obviously MT is very useful for the street. With the addtion of throws--I think some Greco throws work well from the Thai clinch-- and some groundfighting, you have a pretty much complete art...for a fistfight.
Mr. Stagner makes some great points about the realities of real fights, though. A knife or gun changes everythning, and they aren't as rare as some of you may think.
BTW, King of Terror, that is true...sort of. Modern MT is a very different animal from the old style. It's a ring sport, and most of it's techniques don't have too much to do with knife fighting.
"Hapa kabar saudara wiro (sic?)"
Baik..=)
PS: btw, it's apa..not hapa..
I've never heard the Muay Thai - Muay Siam thing, why would anyone change the name of a martial art simply because the name of a country has changed? Muay Thai as it is now, isn't anything like what it was hundreds of years ago...no martial art is.
I was alwasy told that Muay Thai was a derivative of Muay Chao Chur...as I believe was Ledrit (military subset, could be wrong on this one though). I've trained in Muay Thai, Muay Chao Chur and Ledrit now for going on 4 years. Each is very similar. The main differences are in application. Ring fighting is very different from the "battlefield" (for lack of a better word).
Do a search on Yahoo or Goole, under Muay Chao Chur or Ledrit. I found a few pages with brief histories.
Ted
Though I have heard of Muay Thai sometimes referred to as Muay Siam, to the best of my knowledge, ever since Muay Thai became a ring sport, it has always been referred to as Muay Thai. There is a boxing publication/magazine called Muay Siam, and that may be where the reference comes from, as it is a really big national weekly magazine about Mauy Thai with photos and rankings.
Even though the country used to be called Siam, the name of the sport was Muay Thai. It was called Muay Thai because the original people of Thailand were part of the Thai (translated= free) tribe.
The country eventually changed its name to Thailand to reflect their roots, Thailand, or "Land of the Free".
Khun Kao
"Hey Wiro- Lu Medan Lang?? Lu tongkim kin talok? Wat a surprise to meet someone here from the same hometown!"
Heyy..don't give that Hokkien sh*t to me, I don't understand..hehehhe =)