Actually if you are always going to just go against people your size or smaller, then a closed guard game is just fine- I'm sure Marcelo would say the same.
He has a killer triangle, and was killing people with it, winning blue and purple world championships with it.
If you are going against someone significantly bigger than you, whether you are Marcelo's size or 6 feet tall, then the closed guard is not the optimal guard to use.
It really has nothing to do with Marcelo's small stature or not, he trying to espouse the most efficient type of bjj, and closed guard (whether you are amazing at it or not), is simply not the most efficient or effective for ALL body shapes.
I don't think he would for two reasons. First, it's not only size that makes the closed guard ineffective, it's experience. If two people of equal size and SKILL are in closed guard, the guy on bottom is going to have a very hard time. According to MG, the best thing to do is establish some type of hand/arm control, 2 on 1 for example, and transition to butterfly. Second, Marcelo has said that he stays true to the principle idea of jiu jitsu - that smaller opponents can defeat larger ones using the right techniques.
If you search the "in action" videos on mginaction.com, you will find ONE example of Marcelo using the closed guard to set up a triangle, ONE example of him doing an armbar from closed guard, ZERO examples of kimura from closed guard, ZERO examples of collar choke from closed guard,and ONE example of omoplata from closed guard (out of 2,407 "in action" videos). There are several (about 20) examples of him finishing the triangle from the bottom, but even when he catches the triangle his prefered finish is the armbar variation.
When it comes to Marcelo Garcia the only person I would believe more than Kying418 is Marcelo....
Actually if you are always going to just go against people your size or smaller, then a closed guard game is just fine- I'm sure Marcelo would say the same.
He has a killer triangle, and was killing people with it, winning blue and purple world championships with it.
If you are going against someone significantly bigger than you, whether you are Marcelo's size or 6 feet tall, then the closed guard is not the optimal guard to use.
It really has nothing to do with Marcelo's small stature or not, he trying to espouse the most efficient type of bjj, and closed guard (whether you are amazing at it or not), is simply not the most efficient or effective for ALL body shapes.
I don't think he would for two reasons. First, it's not only size that makes the closed guard ineffective, it's experience. If two people of equal size and SKILL are in closed guard, the guy on bottom is going to have a very hard time. According to MG, the best thing to do is establish some type of hand/arm control, 2 on 1 for example, and transition to butterfly. Second, Marcelo has said that he stays true to the principle idea of jiu jitsu - that smaller opponents can defeat larger ones using the right techniques.
If you search the "in action" videos on mginaction.com, you will find ONE example of Marcelo using the closed guard to set up a triangle, ONE example of him doing an armbar from closed guard, ZERO examples of kimura from closed guard, ZERO examples of collar choke from closed guard,and ONE example of omoplata from closed guard (out of 2,407 "in action" videos). There are several (about 20) examples of him finishing the triangle from the bottom, but even when he catches the triangle his prefered finish is the armbar variation.
When it comes to Marcelo Garcia the only person I would believe more than Kying418 is Marcelo....
Thanks Wutang haha. It's okay, I concede defeat :)
If you are going against someone significantly bigger than you, whether you are Marcelo's size or 6 feet tall, then the closed guard is not the optimal guard to use.
It really has nothing to do with Marcelo's small stature or not, he trying to espouse the most efficient type of bjj, and closed guard (whether you are amazing at it or not), is simply not the most efficient or effective for ALL body shapes.
You realize you're contradicting yourself, don't you?
An individual's size is irrelevant in the context of going against a larger opponent. If I'm Matt Serra's size(what is he, 5'4 or some shit? lol) going against Randy Couture or if I'm Randy Couture going up against Bob Sapp, it doesn't make a difference. I'm still a smaller person facing a larger opponent and I have to use the technique(s)/strategy that will work for my body/game against that opponent in that situation. Yet, that truism still has no effect whatsoever on what is appropriate for a larger person facing opponents their own size or smaller, because it's a different set of attributes/variables. Nor does it cheapen their game because they use their body size to their advatange. It'd be like saying small guys have less technique because they rely on their small stature to squirm into positions 'normal' people can't. Or that someone like Eddie Bravo, or other gumby people, have less technique because they rely on their flexibility a helluva lot. It's nonsense. And it's arguments like those that are turning bjj into a fag TMA whenever people start critiquing 'technique' like it's somekind of performance art as opposed to being a functional skill. I mean, how many times have you seen/heard/read TMA fags talking shit about the way someone throws a reverse punch or does a kata? They see a kickboxer wit solid hands KOing a TMA fag and they say the kickboxer is a brawler with no technique because he didn't punch right, even though boxing 'technique' is a functionally superior way to train/fight.
Marcelo believes his techniques work very well against everyone, regardless of size.
I agree.
His ideas on getting top position, and then finishing is the best approach against bigger guys. I've seen team mates try and play for armbars/triangles from guard against bigger, skilled opponents, even same sized skilled opponents and fail.
Marcelo obviously thinks the guard should be used to get top position. If he didn't, he wou;dnt use Butterfly guard and x guard as neither is particularly submission aggressive (as opposed to spider and closed guard).
Closed guard can work against people bigger than you. Simply, you just need to be able to close guard in order to attack from there. Closed guard can also be very sweep aggressive(Buy Andre's dvd if you haven't already).
kying418 - I never said using your size was cheap.
If you are 300 lbs, and you are going against someone thats 500 lbs, a closed guard isn't the most useful guard to use.
If you are 170 lbs and going against someone who is 185, a closed guard still isnt the most useful guard to use.
What is wrong with this line of reasoning?
Because it doesn't factor in individual attributes and preferences. Garcia's game is aggressive and transition-based, which is good for him and his body/mindset. But what about someone like Royce who's got a relaxed, defensive-based game that waits for the opponent to commit/make a mistake? Royce is not built or geared(mindset) like Garcia so him using a similar game is never going to work for him.
If you are going against someone significantly bigger than you, whether you are Marcelo's size or 6 feet tall, then the closed guard is not the optimal guard to use.
It really has nothing to do with Marcelo's small stature or not, he trying to espouse the most efficient type of bjj, and closed guard (whether you are amazing at it or not), is simply not the most efficient or effective for ALL body shapes.
You realize you're contradicting yourself, don't you?
An individual's size is irrelevant in the context of going against a larger opponent. If I'm Matt Serra's size(what is he, 5'4 or some shit? lol) going against Randy Couture or if I'm Randy Couture going up against Bob Sapp, it doesn't make a difference. I'm still a smaller person facing a larger opponent and I have to use the technique(s)/strategy that will work for my body/game against that opponent in that situation. Yet, that truism still has no effect whatsoever on what is appropriate for a larger person facing opponents their own size or smaller, because it's a different set of attributes/variables. Nor does it cheapen their game because they use their body size to their advatange. It'd be like saying small guys have less technique because they rely on their small stature to squirm into positions 'normal' people can't. Or that someone like Eddie Bravo, or other gumby people, have less technique because they rely on their flexibility a helluva lot. It's nonsense. And it's arguments like those that are turning bjj into a fag TMA whenever people start critiquing 'technique' like it's somekind of performance art as opposed to being a functional skill. I mean, how many times have you seen/heard/read TMA fags talking shit about the way someone throws a reverse punch or does a kata? They see a kickboxer wit solid hands KOing a TMA fag and they say the kickboxer is a brawler with no technique because he didn't punch right, even though boxing 'technique' is a functionally superior way to train/fight.
It's ridiculous.
1. Some moves work well against all opponents, whereas some moves only work well if you and your opponent are of equal size (or you are bigger) or if you are more skilled overall (black belt vs blue belt for example) 2. Training time is limited even if you train all day long. 3. Attempting to master a huge variety of moves so that you have a specific game for each opponent based on their attributes will be detrimental for two reasons: a. As the set of skills you attempt to master becomes larger, the less time you have to spend practicing each techniqe.Therefore you will be less proficient at each techniqe than you would be if you practiced a smaller skill set. b. As per hicks law, the more techniques you attempt to choose from in a given situation, the more time it will take to make a decision. A smaller skill set is beneficial because it allows you to make decisions faster, which is very, very important in BJJ.
Marcelo's game consists of a relatively small set of techniques (compared to the endless variations that exist)that work well against opponents of all size. This is one reason that he is so successfull.
1. Some moves work well against all opponents, whereas some moves only work well if you and your opponent are of equal size (or you are bigger) or if you are more skilled overall (black belt vs blue belt for example) 2. Training time is limited even if you train all day long. 3. Attempting to master a huge variety of moves so that you have a specific game for each opponent based on their attributes will be detrimental for two reasons: a. As the set of skills you attempt to master becomes larger, the less time you have to spend practicing each techniqe.Therefore you will be less proficient at each techniqe than you would be if you practiced a smaller skill set. b. As per hicks law, the more techniques you attempt to choose from in a given situation, the more time it will take to make a decision. A smaller skill set is beneficial because it allows you to make decisions faster, which is very, very important in BJJ.
Marcelo's game consists of a relatively small set of techniques (compared to the endless variations that exist)that work well against opponents of all size. This is one reason that he is so successfull.
Like I said before you're not considering an individual's attributes/preferences.
The high percentage argument that some techniques work on everyone is true, but that truism becomes false the second you factor in individual attributes. Meaning, a high percentage, even though it works on everyone, doesn't work for everyone in every situation. Body types, injuries, mindsets, etc, all factor into how a person is able to incorporate and be successful with even high percentage techniques. For example, I'm tall and have long legs. My game/mindset is more suited to open/spider guard stuff because it allows me to fend off an opponent and scramble back to my feet, especially in fighting/self-defense situations. But I do not like or use butterfly even though it's an 'open' guard too, and offers a helluva lot of high percentage sweeps and transitions to the back...ala Garcia. It doesn't work for my body type because I feel cramped and immobile and don't want to get stuck in awkward positions if/when an opponent attempts to pass my guard.
1. Some moves work well against all opponents, whereas some moves only work well if you and your opponent are of equal size (or you are bigger) or if you are more skilled overall (black belt vs blue belt for example) 2. Training time is limited even if you train all day long. 3. Attempting to master a huge variety of moves so that you have a specific game for each opponent based on their attributes will be detrimental for two reasons: a. As the set of skills you attempt to master becomes larger, the less time you have to spend practicing each techniqe.Therefore you will be less proficient at each techniqe than you would be if you practiced a smaller skill set. b. As per hicks law, the more techniques you attempt to choose from in a given situation, the more time it will take to make a decision. A smaller skill set is beneficial because it allows you to make decisions faster, which is very, very important in BJJ.
Marcelo's game consists of a relatively small set of techniques (compared to the endless variations that exist)that work well against opponents of all size. This is one reason that he is so successfull.
Like I said before you're not considering an individual's attributes/preferences.
The high percentage argument that some techniques work on everyone is true, but that truism becomes false the second you factor in individual attributes. Meaning, a high percentage, even though it works on everyone, doesn't work for everyone in every situation. Body types, injuries, mindsets, etc, all factor into how a person is able to incorporate and be successful with even high percentage techniques. For example, I'm tall and have long legs. My game/mindset is more suited to open/spider guard stuff because it allows me to fend off an opponent and scramble back to my feet, especially in fighting/self-defense situations. But I do not like or use butterfly even though it's an 'open' guard too, and offers a helluva lot of high percentage sweeps and transitions to the back...ala Garcia. It doesn't work for my body type because I feel cramped and immobile and don't want to get stuck in awkward positions if/when an opponent attempts to pass my guard.
That's probably a legit argument. Your ideal game might be different than Marcelos because of body type, but it's important that whatever game you choose to use will work against opponents of all types. A game that works FOR you ON everyone.
El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
Why don't triangles work? From guard when the smaller guy is on the bottom and the larger guy is being triangled. I can see why in MMA where you can get slammed but in BJJ that's not the case. What am I missing?
what you are missing is that Marcelo is talking about strategy for going up against guys in the absolute divisions. Why would he, say, try to triangle a Roger Gracie vs work like hell to get his back and go for the safer RNC alternative? Many people fall in love w techniques but fail to realize that techniques work best in a situational context when skill is equal but size/athleticism is not. How you play vs someone who is say 300lbs is alot different then how you play against say someone who is 150lbs. So its not like he never teaches good closed guard work off his back, but if you watch him he may work that on guys his own size but almost NEVER works that against guys bigger then him. So he switches his game up based on his opponents.
No, Marcelo is not talking about strategy. If he can't count on it working against big, world class guys he doesn't even bother with it; not even against smaller guys in practice. What good is it for him to spend his limited training time perfecting techniqes that aren't going to work against everyone? And this principle shouldn't just apply to Marcelo just because he competes at a world class level. I may only be a blue belt, but my goal is to one day be a world class black belt. Even though It might work for me now, it doesn't make sense to spend so much time on techniques that aren't going to work as I progress through the ranks.
you make no sense, you do realize that everyone learns the same basics but when it comes to competition you use you A+ game material that you can fall back onto, right? Hell, Kying for instance has already said how Marcelo has a KILLER TRIANGLE that he has used to win competitions at the lower ranked levels. So obviously he has used it and knows it. But I cannot remember him going for it even ONE TIME in absolute divisions after he got his black belt. SO, what does that mean> It means he uses techniques based on situational contexts. Hell he rarely even hits the armdrag to back combo these dsys as well due to people being savvy, so he changes his comp game up.
Not only has kying echoed these statements, but so have black belts that have trained w him. I am sure he has said what you said on his site, but I would rather have a indepth interview w him instead of taking small blurbs. No way do his students JUST do what he does for competition training.
El_Gato - That's probably a legit argument. Your ideal game might be different than Marcelos because of body type, but it's important that whatever game you choose to use will work against opponents of all types. A game that works FOR you ON everyone.
Correct. That's why these kinds of discussions...the one's stemming from what our heroes say in interviews...are silly. It's because even though they(hero strategies) are valid, they're only relevant in narrow/specific contexts. And those contexts revolve around players with similar body types, games/mindsets, and the venue(s) for which they're intended.
Unless a technique/strategy is obviously bad...and even then opinions vary and truisms can be deceiving/misunderstood(I can tell a short/stupid story about omo/gogo-plata later)...I don't advocate/dismiss it just because my heroes talk about it in an interview or I see them tearing up the mat with it. I look at what application it has to my game and goals before I attach a value to it. Regarding Garcia's comments. To my knowledge(and correct me if I'm wrong), he hasn't fought mma yet, right? Therefore I have to take his game-specific strategy with a grain of salt because a) everyone is different, and b) I still see closed guard/submissions used a fair bit when the punches are flying, so in my abrasively humble opinion I think they still have value and shouldn't be disregarded.
El_Gato - Yeah, Marcelo does not advocate the closed guard. He's said this several times during instruction on mginaction.com He doesn't say it never works, just that it's not high percentage and can only be counted on when one's opponent is much smaller or less experienced. He also says the same thing, for the most part, about attacking from any bottom position. His goal is to use the guard to get on top, then work for the sub once he's there. Of course, he has submissions from the bottom, but he only uses them when his opponent makes a mistake during a transition; while they're trying to pass or defend the sweep. I think his attitude of only practicing techniques that he can count on to work reliably against bigger, world class opponents is the key to his success. This is why he doesn't use head and arm chokes, kimuras, triangles from guard etc.
Why don't triangles work? From guard when the smaller guy is on the bottom and the larger guy is being triangled. I can see why in MMA where you can get slammed but in BJJ that's not the case. What am I missing?<br type="_moz" />
what you are missing is that Marcelo is talking about strategy for going up against guys in the absolute divisions. Why would he, say, try to triangle a Roger Gracie vs work like hell to get his back and go for the safer RNC alternative? Many people fall in love w techniques but fail to realize that techniques work best in a situational context when skill is equal but size/athleticism is not. How you play vs someone who is say 300lbs is alot different then how you play against say someone who is 150lbs. So its not like he never teaches good closed guard work off his back, but if you watch him he may work that on guys his own size but almost NEVER works that against guys bigger then him. So he switches his game up based on his opponents.
No, Marcelo is not talking about strategy. If he can't count on it working against big, world class guys he doesn't even bother with it; not even against smaller guys in practice. What good is it for him to spend his limited training time perfecting techniqes that aren't going to work against everyone? And this principle shouldn't just apply to Marcelo just because he competes at a world class level. I may only be a blue belt, but my goal is to one day be a world class black belt. Even though It might work for me now, it doesn't make sense to spend so much time on techniques that aren't going to work as I progress through the ranks.
you make no sense, you do realize that everyone learns the same basics but when it comes to competition you use you A+ game material that you can fall back onto, right? Hell, Kying for instance has already said how Marcelo has a KILLER TRIANGLE that he has used to win competitions at the lower ranked levels. So obviously he has used it and knows it. But I cannot remember him going for it even ONE TIME in absolute divisions after he got his black belt. SO, what does that mean> It means he uses techniques based on situational contexts. Hell he rarely even hits the armdrag to back combo these dsys as well due to people being savvy, so he changes his comp game up.
Not only has kying echoed these statements, but so have black belts that have trained w him. I am sure he has said what you said on his site, but I would rather have a indepth interview w him instead of taking small blurbs. No way do his students JUST do what he does for competition training.
I'm not basing my comments on small blurbs from the website. There are several hundred instructional videos on his website and he always echoes the theme of only relying on the techniques that work against everyone. Of course he teaches the "basics" at his academy, you can't fully understand BJJ without them.
Marcelo has been a black belt for over 8 years. That's a lot of time to re-evaluate how he thinks about BJJ. I know there are things he did a lot at brown belt that he doesn't do now (pull half guard) because he has come to realize it's not as high percentage as butterfly - this coming from him. The fact that he played closed guard as a blue belt is irrelevant.
Sat, 2010-05-15 11:32 — Sheena Lee: Marcelo, Do you have any suggestions on what women should focus on when training jiu-jitsu for self-defense? Also, what are some tips for women who train mostly with much bigger, stronger, and technical men?
Sat, 2010-05-15 11:36 — Marcelo Garcia: JJ is most technical way to defend yourself against a bigger and stronger opponent. I believe the techniques of my arsenal can be used against someone bigger than you. In fact that is one of my main principles--to only use techniques that will work against any body type. For example I don't use the kimura or head and arm chokes becasue I much bigger guy could resist. So even against a small opponent I will not use them because that would slow down my growth.
"If you look at his bjj progression throughout the years, you will see how his game has evolved with this philosophy of creating the most efficient and effective system to defeat opponents of all sizes." - Quote from Kying418 on the mginaction forum
we are going in circles as we are both right to a extent. He may have a system, but he also uses it based on strategy due to opponents. Hell its like when he pulled off that heel hook against Ricco Rodriguez a few ADCCs ago. I have NEVER seen him go for a leglock but when faced with that mismatch when he saw the opportunity he went for it. So once again, he made a strategic decision. Still have not seen him do so before or since that match.
Hunter V - we are going in circles as we are both right to a extent. He may have a system, but he also uses it based on strategy due to opponents. Hell its like when he pulled off that heel hook against Ricco Rodriguez a few ADCCs ago. I have NEVER seen him go for a leglock but when faced with that mismatch when he saw the opportunity he went for it. So once again, he made a strategic decision. Still have not seen him do so before or since that match.
I am inclined to say he also heel hooked Mike Van Arsdale in ADCC one year, but my memory could be wrong.
nah, he finished him by rnc in ADCC 2003. Sat down in his guard, hit the arm drag and choked him from the back. I remember as Mike was laughing about it afterwards as you could tell he didn't think he would have gotten armdragged like that.