pharmaceuticals are a scam

Underground
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1. Do you believe there are healthier ways to fix a health problem than taking medication?

Does it always have to be an either or??  I don't think so, so I don't think the question is really valid.  I don't think you're gonna find a pharma OR a doctor that's gonna give you a weight loss pill and say take this and then eat whatever the hell you want all day even if it's pizza and ice cream.  This is a common misconception that gets talked up in 'natural' circles.

2. Do you believe all natural doctors are quacks? even those that started out as medical doctors?

Not necessarily, but a LOT of natural doctors are quacks.  Seeing as there's very little in the way of certification or regulation I'd say there's a higher percentage quacks in the 'natural' field than in the traditional (which does have its fair share of quacks).

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The bottom line is this; traditional medicine and pharma is rooted in scientifically reproducable proof of efficacy.  Most 'natural' remedies are rooted in folklore and anecdotal evidence.  Maybe not a bad place to start to look for a particular remedy, but by itself, folklore/anecdotal evidence is by no stretch of the imagination as good as a well conducted reproducable study using the scientific method.  No matter how much people wanna believe otherwise.

Do traditional medicine and pharma have their limitations?  Of course.  And they're run by people, who are imperfect by their very nature, so yes, sometimes they're gonna get corrupted.  But again, the 'natural' movement is run by people who are just as imperfect as doctors and pharmacologists.  At least the medical community places rigorous standards on itself.

Experience in the modern world has shown that science strives to correct itself.  The same science that gives us pharma gives us computers, electricity in every home, modern air and space travel, etc.  Saying modern pharma is all based on a scam is like saying the computer industry is based on a scam; it shows a fundamental ignorance of how shit like that works.

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"1. Do you believe there are healthier ways to fix a health problem than taking medication?"

Depends on what the problem is.

"2. Do you believe all natural doctors are quacks? even those that started out as medical doctors?"

If we define a quack as a person that uses methodologies that have been shown to be ineffective or are unproven (from a scientific perspective, not a personal perspective), then yes. This doesn't mean they're bad people and it doesn't mean they're out to do harm or scam people. Some people certainly are (i.e. Kevin Trudeau), but some of them are well meaning and unfortunately uninformed or deluded. Quite simply, naturopathy is based on magical thinking; they claim to be holistic, and believe a mishmash spiritual jargon, among other things, makes you healthy. The name naturopath is kind of misleading in that way. ('Natural' doc is kind of a vague term, I assume you mean naturopath but feel free to correct me.)

A naturopath prescribing diet and a dietician prescribing diet are doing pretty much the same thing- trying to promote your health by tailoring what you eat. They differ in the extent to which they think the diet will be effective. There are plenty of people who want to sell you on the fact that your diet is the sole arbiter of your health. This is an unscientific view and is where the naturopath and the (scientifically based) dietician will differ.

It's an attractive notion, I know, to believe that you are what you eat. You control what goes in to your body, and since you eat so often it's easy to draw correlations between food intake and health. But as we all know, correlation doesn't equal causation. Not all health problems are caused by or can be fixed by diet.

Certainly a good diet and promote good health, the science on this is quite clear- I really don't know where people get the idea that science only wants to throw a pill at people. Scientific American just released a single topic issue on food; diet is an area of intense research, there is a lot of very good science going in to it. You'd be much better off following the science news than listening to a guy selling a book, or people who rely on the same old false notion that modern science is all about pills. It's false, it's bad reasoning, and it doesn't help anyone to believe it.

If you don't want to follow gov recommendations fine, don't, they're bound to lag behind science due to inertia anyway. But I promise there is real actual science going on in nutrition, and it's not based on nor does it support the idea that food can fix everything. It's just not true.

(tangent off. Oh, Superfrog can feel free to contribute something aside from name calling if he wants his posts to remain.)

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What about the problems of over prescriptions and obscene marketing I mentioned in my post??

What of the made up syndromes??

Yes the real info is out there but you have to seek it out...it is not marketed.Knowledge is not being promoted as much as pills are.

coincidentally this was in my mail today.I know it doesnt really count because its not a double blind placebo controlled study LOL WTF happened to common sense??

Found this post on GoneRaw.com - Hi, I have suffered with Fibromyalgia for the last 20 years. I have been on every medication that they use for FMS. On May 28th I was told the current drug that I had been on for over a year was causing a lung disease...so I decided to take matters into my own hands, with the help of the Man upstairs. I stopped all meds, eliminated all major food categories that trigger FMS - dairy, meat, processed foods, flour, etc...and just began eating fruits, veggies, nuts and seeds. Now I'm in my 7th day of a Master Cleanse and I can say for the first time in all these years I am almost completely out of pain!!! I do not intend to ever go back to my old lifestyle and eating habits. The raw is the only way to live. The best thing to do, is stop mixing your foods and just go for it – completely raw. You will not regret making the change – in fact your body will be so grateful. I am taking 30 minute walks daily – the first time in so many years that I can walk without pain.

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Another raw foodie...hell yeah! Raw food is not fun at first, but once you do it for a while, you feel great. I've also done the master cleanse like the girl in the post. Good stuff. I'm looking forward to doing another. Goneraw.com..hmmm...I'll have to check out that website.

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I am A moderator, yes. Since the H&M forum mods no longer post here, I'm all you got :P

"What about the problems of over prescriptions and obscene marketing I mentioned in my post??"

A lot of doctors also believe this is a problem. No argument there. Doesn't qualify pharmaceuticals as a whole as a scam though.

"What of the made up syndromes??"

What made up syndromes? Do you have evidence that (say) RLS doesn't actually exist?

"Yes the real info is out there but you have to seek it out...it is not marketed.Knowledge is not being promoted as much as pills are."

I disagree, but then I may pay attention to different things than you. It's not hidden, that much is certain. It does take a little effort to be informed, but being obstinately misinformed like so many people are, then basing arguments on that position, is just silly.

Your email is basically meaningless for the reason you stated, plus there's no way to even verify that it's true! Now, assuming it is and this guy is magically curing his un-curable disease, what would make that happen?

Luckily, much more intelligent and qualified people than me have addressed this question :P

Barry Beyerstein (recently deceased), to be specific.

Now I know that linking an article on quackwatch qualifies me as a tool of the medical industrial complex and renders my input meaningless, but at least this wasn't written by Dr. Barrett.

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Jonwell..You and I obviously have different views but we actually somewhat agree on many things.
I am most certainly not an all or nothing type or its just black and white.I am not a pure raw foodist or a pee drinker.I dont put things up my butt and I dont fast.
You are close minded to views other than your own and you like to cherry pick your debating points.
Several years ago I made fun of many of the things you think are bunk. Personal first hand experience and research(it is most certainly out there if you had an open mind,yes real scientific evidence)have lead to a change of views for me.

"A lot of doctors also believe this is a problem. No argument there. Doesn't qualify pharmaceuticals as a whole as a scam though."
didnt mean to imply the whole industry is a scam....just alot of it

"What made up syndromes? Do you have evidence that (say) RLS doesn't actually exist?"
seriously dude....its an epidemic that needs drug advertising ???also i am not into proving negatives.

I know that email was pure conjecture but when combined with personal experience it rings very true.If you had a more open mind you may experience some of these things for yourself instead of just debating and reading various studies that enforce your already firmly established views.

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Showing that there's no evidence for the existence of RLS wouldn't be proving a negative... showing that RLS doesn't exist would be proving a negative, indeed. But you could examine the evidence for something and find it lacking, certainly.

RLS medication (if I'm remembering this correctly) came about in the same way that Viagra did. Nobody set about to come up with a drug to give old dudes boners, it came about as a result of research in to treating circulatory problems... turns out one of the compounds they tested gave old dudes boners and they immediately realized the insane marketing potential. That's just good business.

I take offense to being called close minded. I don't believe I'm close minded at all. I'm skeptical, and I'm intellectually responsible, but that's different than being close minded. Most importantly, I'm very very open to being proven wrong. If you have evidence to show me that shows I'm wrong, bring it on. Please! I'd much rather know the truth than cling to an incorrect belief out of stubbornness. I'm wrong all the time, as I find out frequently from paying attention to scientific progress. I love that part of science, because it means I learn more.

But I do require high standards of evidence. I believe this is only prudent. I'm involved with science on a daily basis in my studies, and I know very well that people are wrong most of the time. Most of the ideas I come up with are, in fact, wrong. Accepting that fact is the first step of intellectual honesty. When you come up with an idea, you have to be responsible to yourself and think "in what ways could this line of thinking be wrong?"

NOT a lot of people do this. More people will come up with an idea then find ammunition to support it. Unfortunately the chances are simply that you're wrong. There's nothing wrong with this. But you need to be honest and poke as many holes as you can.

For that reason I don't find anecdotal evidence convincing; there are just too many ways for it to go wrong. I'm not saying it's impossible for it to be right, I'm just demanding a higher standard of evidence. If someone's anecdote is true, then it will hold up to scientific examination and I will be more than happy to accept it. Really, I will. But I need the evidence. And I think any prudent person should have that same standard, lest those with a desire to screw you (conscious or unconscious) do so.

And if you think I'm cherrypicking, well, fine... I don't think so, but feel free to call me on something if you think I am. I try to be specific when I talk about things, so naturally the specific things I bring up are things I know about, but that's just responsible :P

I've had a lot of beer (if I am what I eat, I'm a pitcher of IPA and a cheesburger) and Superfrog's blocks of text are intimidating, so I'll get back to this in the morning.

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We are operating from different paradigms because my world view changed.
My mom is a PhD in microbiology and has/is working for top pharm companies to develop anti biotics.Her dissertation on drug resistant bacteria and their breeding grounds led me on a path of organic food and it went from there.BTW I cited a mountain of evidence to you before on the benefits of organic and the dangers of Gm but anyway.Did you ever grow 2 tomato plants side by side??one conventional and one organic...off topic.

If you are eating a S.A.D then you are likely destined to be on medication by age 40 for one or more...depression,cholesterol,blood pressure,sleep disorders and possibly overweight.
If your interested I have a story about the GI Dr my wife went to with a scary condition a couple of months ago.While in the waiting room for 2 hours I soon noticed that 8 of 10 patients were fat.When my wife was done I asked Dr about diet and he was ambiguous at best and then offered meds if it did not clear up.Well we went Paleo and 100% cured my wife and then some.I also feel incredible as I was totally unaware of food sensitivities because I felt OK already.POint is I would have never altered my eating if not for my wifes problem.
You can just say "well that dr sucks" true but when that experience is repeated over and over I see a pattern.When I talk to older people they say the same thing.My Great granny is turning 100 in a couple of months and I asked her the secret to longevity and she said"stay away from Drs and dont take prescriptions".WOW!99 yrs old and not 1 pill bottle.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030170&ct=1

"The Case of Restless Legs Syndrome

To get a sense of how the media works in the context of a major disease promotion effort, we examined news coverage of "restless legs" (see sidebar). In 2003, GlaxoSmithKline launched a campaign to promote awareness about restless legs syndrome, beginning with press releases about presentations at the American Academy of Neurology meeting describing the early trial results of using ropinirole (a drug previously approved for Parkinson disease) for the treatment of restless legs [6,7]. Two months later, GlaxoSmithKline issued a new press release entitled "New survey reveals common yet under recognized disorder--restless legs syndrome--is keeping Americans awake at night" about an internally funded and, at the time, unpublished study [8]. In 2005, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved ropinirole for the treatment of restless legs syndrome (the first drug approved specifically for this indication). Since then, the restless legs campaign has developed into a multimillion dollar international effort to "push restless legs syndrome into the consciousness of doctors and consumers alike" [9]."

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I forgot a personal story of my own. I took a thyroid test at a hospital many years ago because I was experiencing fatigue. The results said I had mild hypothyroidism (not full blown). They put me on synthroid which gave me irregular heart rythms. I've read there's more side effects to synthroid as well. Anyway, I decided to stop using it. Later I learned about taking kelp and extra virgin coconut oil. Including those two simple foods in my diet fixed my health problem. When I would get lazy and forget to take them for a while, the fatigue returned, so I doubt it was a placebo effect.