Rahman has faced better opposition than Ruiz, and has done better against most of them. He's 1-1 against Lennox and 1-1 against Tua. Ruiz lost to Tua, and never fought Lennox. Rahman lost to Holy, but imo, Ruiz is 1-2 against Holy, so I'm not sure that's a big seperation between them.
Ruiz didn't fight Lewis that's correct,but that's because Lewis didn't want to fight him. John wanted to fight him Lewis wouldn't he gave up his belt instead. Lewis Know's he could of knocked him out,but he also knew John might of made him look bad. He wouldn't risk it
Tommy: I agree that Byrd has faced comparable opposition
Spider: I happen to think that Neumann (Rahman fight), Cortez (Johnson and Holyfield 2) and Steele (Holyfield 1) are exteremly competent referees. Saying he cheated in all his fights kinda sounds like the school yard rant.
JH: Rahman was 0-1-1 vs Tua and Ruiz was 1-1-1 vs Holyfield...maybe you should email boxrec to let them know about the changes that have recently taken place
In the end, the guys last 7 fights have been against top quality opposition in the HW division. I can't beleive people have a problem respceting that....
Cortez in two different fights, failed to recongize Ruiz' faking low blows, or causing them to go low by pulling his opponent down.
Holyfield put Ruiz down with a solid body shot, ON THE BELT, and Ruiz rolled around on the canvas crying until Cortez deducted a point from Holyfield. Not only that, at the very least, you could say that the punch was borderline and certainly not low on purpose. However, the first thing Ruiz does when the fight resumes is throw a blatantly intentional low blow to Holyfield and Cortez lets it go. Holyfield isn't the Cryin' Man like Ruiz so Cortez didn't think much of it. WTF is that?
In the Johnson fight (also reffed by Cortez), Ruiz caused several of the low blows himself. Clinching and pulling Johnson downward as Johnson is throwing a punch. I think the very one that got Johnson DQ'd hit Ruiz' elbow and then deflected downward into his nuts. NOT JOHNSON'S FAULT. Yet because of all the crying Ruiz was doing all night, Johnson gets DQ'ed. Ruiz could have won that fight without the DQ yet he still has to pull all that garbage.
Homie, it isn't the clinching that is a problem in and of itself. However, when one clinches excessivly, the referee can put a stop to it. Also, when one fighter's clinching and pulling tactics cause the other fighter's punches to go low, then that is too bad for the clinching fighter. Ruiz should get NO SYMPATHY from the referee or fans when he causes the low blows due to his own "questionable" tactics.
Nady didn't put up with any of that shit, and look what happened. Perhaps Nady went too far, but Cortez didn't do nearly enough either.
Molson, don't be an ass. You can't tell me that you scored Tua/Rahman 2 a draw. I mean, come one. You scored Holyfield/Ruiz a draw too? I'm just calling it the way it really way. Ruiz was 1-2 vs Holy and Rahman was 1-1 vs Tua.
I guess if Don King had gotten Buster's title taken away for the long count in Tokyo you'd have said Douglas didn't KO Tyson?
"As far as I know, clinching is legal. It happens every fight. Hell, wasn't Manny supposed to be showing Vlad how to clinch more often? "
excessive clinching is illegal, and judging by Lennox, Manny trains his fighters to cheat and get away with it, so I wouldn't use that as evidence of its legality
How many times did Wlad get warned for his excessive clinching? A number of times, I recall. If the fight had gone on longer and Wlad continued to do it to the same degree, I am sure that referee would have penalized him for it. Of course, we'll never know that for sure.
JH: I was just joking around a little with you but now that you bring it up...did you really score the first fight with Ruiz for Evander? I did give Evander theseond 3rd fight but thought it was closer than most people were screaming. I'd have that series 2-1 Ruiz if we're going on opinion. As for Rahman, I also thought that was a closer fight than most people yelled about and was not entirely disappointed with the draw (although I did think Rahman won that as well) but if its close and a decision goes against what i thought, then i accept the decision. If I thought any other way I could take very few fighters records at face value.
SM: The low blows that KJ landed were his fault...he continuously threw low...I remember even seeing a few shots that I was stunned weren't caught by the ref..Ruiz was winning that fight outright and did not need to "cheat"....I'm really strecthing my brain to remember the Ruiz/Evander incident you're talking about but really can't remember it so i can't really comment...I'll take your word it happened though...but at the same time, those fights were so foul plagued by BOTH fighters that I won't pick on one incident...
Hopkins and Evander are widely recognized as two of the dirtiest fighters in all of boxing...what do they get? Hall of Fame recognition. I'm not IN THE LEAST BIT saying ruiz is in their vicinity for HoF, but why can';t we give him credit for his victories when we can easily do so for BH and EH?
I think when one does something that is against the rules systematically, you can call it "cheating" whether the ref calls it or not.
If someone lands a low blow twice, in a 12 round fight for example, I wouldn't call it cheating as it could be purly unintentional and accidents happen. However, if a fighter were to land 2 low blows a round then I would call it "cheating". It is subjective for sure.
Molson, I am not claiming that KJ didn't throw any legitimate low blows or that he would have won the fight. I am not sure he should have been DQ'd though.
I am just saying that this is all part of a pattern of sloppy clinch filled fights that ALL have RUIZ as one of the combatants. You can't tell me that none of this is Ruiz' fault and that it is all perfectly legal.
Molson, i understand where you're coming from, but I thought Rahman won the 2nd fight by a fair bit. To be truthful, I haven't watched Ruiz/Holy 1 since it happened, but i think i had Holy winning by a round, or something like that. I'll have to go back and watch it again i guess (shudder)
"I mean if the ref does see if but decides not to take a point because he does not consider it excessive."
This is where I would say that the referees don't get it right a lot of the time. Jay Nady in the Ruiz/Jones fight called it right. Clinching was allowed, no one got a point deducted for clinching, but there were warnings. Ruiz did have time in the clinch contrary to what he and his fans claimed yet it wasn't allowed to be excessive like in other fights. Ruiz couldn't do anything without being able to clinch for long periods and manhandle his opponent, wearing them down, in those extended clinches.
"isn't Ruiz entitled to fight with the subjectivity the ref is giving him?"
Yes he is, but he is NOT entitled to get credit from me for it. This is just my opinion you know.
MMmmm.... brains...
err.. uh... yeah, ok. I really am getting these weird cravings since that wacked out homeless guy bit me on the arm. That bastard.
The last low blow Johnson hit Ruiz with was his way of getting out,he tasted Johns power in the 9th and was about to get KO'd. He was clearly warned one more low blow and you'll be DQ'd. What's he do.... throws a blatant low blow getting the end result he wanted the DQ to avoid the KO.
I wouldn't disagree with that MattM. I think some of the earlier low blows were bovine fecal matter though.
Kirk Johnson is a dumbass.