Q: Why no judo, aikido, in JKD?

Underground
21

Mostly I lurk, but thought I could add a little here. Years ago I trained in IMB Cincinnati under a guy who was certified by Bustillo (Elden Clem). When you joined the gym, he made you get an ABA card. He also pushed guys to have at least one fight as a boxer if they were going to hang around (I had already had kickboxing matches, as well as training and sparring in boxing gyms, so I passed). Richard backed the idea enough that he asked Elden to use the IMB name. At least at that point it was the only "IMB" affililate using the name. I have to say the guys there were pretty good fighters and the focus on boxing created a base/approach that today would be described as "functional".

Related to that, I met Elden through Rafael Lovato (who is now a Machado Black Belt out west). Rafael was also boxing based (having fought as a kid). I did a lot of private work with Rafael and know that during that time boxing was really the base he used to explore everything else. In fact, when I asked to learn trapping he told me to get it from someone else because he really was not into it. Again, Richard certified Rafael and clearly supported the guy.

Finally, here is Boston there is a Bustillo related gym that also teaches pure boxing classes (and pure Muay Thai) classes. They have trained golden gloves champs in the state.

All of that leads me to believe that boxing is a big part of the influence for at least some people in his organization. Of course, it is important to realize the Richard boxed as a kid, before every meetign the JKD group.

22

I thought the SBG was a JKD school; they seem to primarily do Boxing, BJJ, FMA, and some wrestling.....

23

Why are you so bent on Aikido? Personally, I just don't see how Aikido can benefit my mma type of training that we do. When was the last time anybody ever won an mma fight with Aikido?

24

how am I bent on aikido? how does benefiting your MMA game (i.e. training kali for instance) have anything to do with this post?

25

When was the last time someone in the UFC one using a heel hook? How about a knee bar? While watching Patrick Kote (sp?) on TUF earlier this week I saw him use uppercuts well. That in itself is rare. These are tools that are part and parcel to the generic mma repetoire, but we don't see them used successfully or substantively very often.

Personally I don't see myself using a lot of aikido when I fight because I don't have the timing or necessary skills. I also question some of the validity of their techniques because of the very cooperative nature of their training. I'm not saying it won't or can't work, but I think the outcome would likely be different on successful use against a real opponent compared to someone willing to air-roll out of a wrist lock. Plus I don't know aikido remotely. However, you never know what weird thing someone might pull off. Besides, their are various levels of combat. What might not be useful for you in a fight for your life might be useful when dealing with someone who is simply non-cooperative.

26

Fat Buddah,
I am curious about the intended aim of your post. Is it to seriously
inquire as to the lack of Aikido in Inosanto trained instructors or is it a
thinly veiled accusation that these same instructors have no
discernable intelligence beyond know how to set a JKD decoder ring
and therefore are incapable of thinking as profoundly as you are?
Admittedly, there are a few Inosanto instructors who are a little swept
up by all the hoopla but, come on, who isn't at the beginning of a
journey with a distiguished guide like Daniel Inosanto?

When it comes to BJJ, is is not only JKD people who have stayed away
from what you refer to as Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Many non JKD practicing
Brazilians do also. Why not ask about the absence of Shotokan karate
or Hapkido or Hsing-I? You paint me with that brush too, and I resent
it. You don't know me or what I have ever done so how do you know
what I have accepted, rejected, or cast aside for no reason at all? How
many others are like me? Neither of us know.

I admit it. I will NEVER train in Aikido. Probably not in Wing Chun
either. Oh well. Did I fail?

27

Here some other possibilities why some "arts" might be underrepresented: (1) Too boring--like who wants to jump rope and run and shadow box all the time--booooring! (2) Already too many skilled guys doing it--who wants to add boxing to their JKD when any gym would have 20 kids without certificates, sashes, diplomas, logos, patches, lineages, etc who can tattoo your face, and put you on the canvas with a liver hook, and generally make you look incompetent (3) Lacks mystical veneer and aura of elite exoticism---most American males of a certain age and social class and sense of physical insecurity will claim they "boxed a little when they were younger", but not many will say they trained Maphilindo Silat (4) prejudice against Koreans. I recall that in my own limited time at the IAMA @ 94-98 (not continuously) many many many arts were being taught, including boxing, Muay Thai, and Savate--but no Korean art. A suspicious exclusion. Everyone is always ganging up on the Koreans.

Someone who knows him better than I did can correct me if I'm wrong but I think Dan Inosanto's objective was/is to teach arts, not to train athletes, which is fine. But if your ambition is to be an athlete then you have to train like one and maybe the IAMA and the JKD Concepts thing isn't necessarily the best way for some people. Like the time you spend memorizing salutations and counts etc is time you aren't sparring, running, hitting the heavy bag. Yeah, I know Erik fought and so did a few other guys, but the training that most people were doing there wasn't geared to prepare them for fighting. Which is ok. Not everyone has or wants to be a fighter.

I think the SBG has sort of taken the other road, which is to train athletes, but in a broad spectrum of styles, rather than to teach "arts". That is, to train guys to be good at whatever, rather than to know a lot about that whatever. Someone who know the SBG thing better than I do can comment in more detail no doubt.

I'm completely biased. I want what I do to work for me ("retain what is useful")and the only way I can feel confident about that is if I do 1000 rounds of live sparring. Other people may not be so self-doubting, or might even be training for diferent reasons. Maybe they want to know a million techniques and actually don't care whether they can really execute them in the appropriate time and place.

Like that guy said, I respect all arts. I have enough enemies already.

28

Sled Dog: My post is not a thinly veiled anything. I think I made my opinions pretty clear (you can go back and read my original posts) with no subterfuge: It is what it is. As far as me implying that Inosanto's instructors are not thinking as profoundly as I am, that's not really for me to judge. If more people agree with me than you it doesn't necessarily make my thinking profound. I don't think what I posted was particularly profound but I do think it was a valid observation.

As far as excusing non-JKD practicing Brazilians from practicing Gracie Jiu-jitsu I think you are missing the point. Guru Dan has stated in describing an example of a JKDC student that he may choose different percentages of different arts to focus on based on HIS PERSONAL preferences or discoveries. If everyones' "personal preferences" look exactly like Guru Dans then you are not being true to his very definition of JKD. Gracie Jiu-jitsu was just an example of an art that people chose not to explore or focus on because Guru Dan didn't, as was aikido (yes it may not work at all or be functional I don't know, please retract aikido from all the arts I listed, it was only an example out of many but it is funny and curious how many latched on to only aikido, the easiest target for ridicule and taking the discussion off topic)

Furthermore, I'm not "painting" you as you say with any brush (therefore you should not "resent" it as you say) since frankly I don't know who you are and I don't know how true you are to yourself or JKD. I do think that we can make observations about groups and shouldn't close our eyes to things we observe just as Sigung Bruce commented on the fat and lazy masters whose proclamations of "chi power" resided more in their fat stomachs than in their abilities.

29

I think that some or all of Keseki's 4 factors of why arts are "under-represented" may very well be accurate. Interesting post. Thanks for the contribution Keseki. I think that "lacks mystical veneer and aura of elite exoticism" defintely touches a chord with some truth in it.

Let me make it clear to distinguish myself from possible misconceptions that I am aligned with all of the inferences in Kesekis or others posts: I don't believe that you can soley determine an arts effectiveness through SBGI type sparring (how many throws in the Canon of Judo would be rejected if the throw was taught, briefly drilled until the movement was understood, then sparred with? How many of the 40 throws of the gokyo (which we KNOW work time after time in competitions all over the world) would be rejected since nobody could get them to immediately work at all against resisting opponents in sparring?). I do however think that sparring has an important place in evaluating an art and techniques within that art.

Also I also don't think that "what we see in the UFC" is everything that works, and I have a great respect for Guru Dan's abilities especially in the Filipino Martial Arts. But I digress.

30

I don't do Kali, but I do something that resembles "bastardized kali." I was a JKD guy at one time, but I have deviated to something else which is more mma based.

31

"as was aikido (yes it may not work at all or be functional I don't know, please retract aikido from all the arts I listed, it was only an example out of many but it is funny and curious how many latched on to only aikido, the easiest target for ridicule and taking the discussion off topic)"

I noticed that too.....pretty interesting.

32

On Sparring: Just to expand a bit, by sparring I meant any training that puts you against a resisting opponent. Training without an opponent can be also useful, but sooner or later, you have to glove up. How the oppoent resists depends on exactly what skills you are training.

I respect all styles. I have enough enemies already.

33

keseki:
"Training without an opponent can be also useful..."
Totally agree, I was just trying to point out that I believe in more training methods that what is acceptable under my understanding of SBGI philosophy. I do realize the vast importance of sparring but also the value of visualization, solo training, repetitions on a partner, live drills or cooperative sparring all the way down the spectrum to various forms of partner sparring. I believe heavy emphasis on the all out sparring approach without focus or massive repetitions of technique produces sloppy technique and counterproductive results. Again a digression from the main point of the thread, my apologies...

34

Fat Buddah:

A few years ago, I posted a similar question more specifically about the lack of judo in the JKDC cirriculum. There were fewer answers and less controversey, probably because of no mention of JKD/JKDC people by name. I don't recall that any "old school" big name JKD/JKDC people answered, but I may be wrong. Some of their students may have replied.

The most notable person who did get involved in the discussion was Matt Thornton, however. I believe that he attributed the abscense of judo to a lack of exposure to it by JKD students of his era. He also said that he saw value in its inclusion, particularly for self defense with clothes on, i.e. non-mma type street grappling. This is based on my memory, as I don't know how to retreive old posts. I am subject to correction on this if someone can find the topic for me, and I certainly am not trying to speak for Mr. Thornton.

As to the reasons for the lack of judo in a noticable amount (not knowing what EVERY instructor has done) in JKD/JKDC because it clearly was in Bruce Lee's JKD, I can only speculate that it is due to two reasons:

1) A failure to diverge from the mainstream path of JKD/JKDC, as you point to

2) An unwillingness to train in an art/sport that hurts too much for MOST people (please note I am generalizing here about instructors/students who are more interested in drills and non hard contact training, and this is obvioulsy not my original opinion, it has been debated to death)

IMHO, for what it's worth

Stan

35

Stan: thanks very much for your post, that's very interesting. I agree very much with the 2 reasons you listed.

36

I loved my time in judo, but after reconstructive knee surgery I had to choose something different. I still include five or six throw in my JKD program, but the way a lot of judo people train is more than my knee can take. Six months of recovery and the price of having a new ACL is more than I can afford again.

Guro Dan has shown some cool judo throws mixed in with trapping. You could of course also apply them directly from a tie-up if that is more your style. (Wait... doesn't this mean that there is at least some Judo in JKD?) One opinion I hold is that his and Ron Balicki's explanation of the throws (as in his DVD series) was pretty good and easy to understand. I've had more success doing uchi mata the way Ron Balicki describes it than any other way I was taught. Who knows why, perhaps I just absorbed it better, but I've had way better results with my backstep on the outside rather than between uke's legs.

37

FB,

If your main point is that many people don't think for themselves, in a "system" that aims to have each practitioner find their OWN way--then I think many of us have agreed.

The most we can really hope to do is speak for ourselves. Maybe we can turn this into an enlightening and productive conversation for everyone.

Here are the characteristics of my own personal JKD at this time:

1) I am focused on my grappling right now, because it was my weakest area. I'm a BJJ purple belt, and I'm trying to make time for Wrestling training to build my takedown game. I vastly prefer no-gi, but have recently returned to gi-training as well. I also have an interest in Sambo, though my exposure has only been through seminars. I've trained Judo as a kid and as an adult, and if it fit better in my schedule I'd be training it right now.

2) My boxing/kickboxing structure has shifted to a more "core" structure after growing up with a Kenpo Karate background. From my limited exposure to each, I vastly prefer Boxe Francaise Savate because of the way that I move and the emphasis on angles, rhythm, and timing over Muay Thai (but I would LOVE to take a few years and focus on BOTH of these training methods to develop some depth). I'm hoping that next year is the year that I get to take on a whole lot of Savate to bring a new freshness to my standup.

3) The one thing I retain from my early days of Kenpo Karate and Modern Arnis is a love for getting inside and taking control. My clinch game is mostly designed for striking and takedown defenses (though again, I'd like more wrestling).

4) My blade work is now shifting entirely to Kalis Ilustrisimo. It seems to have a real unique niche when it comes to efficient training methods for blades of all sizes. If I had more time, I'd also delve further into Sayoc Kali. I've had a few classes/seminars there, and it was really fun.

5) Here are some other things that play a role in my training, but I want to return to them for more action in the future:

-Traditional Japanese Jujutsu (because many techniques once thought to be "low percentage" like wristlocks are now bringing real RESULTS when trained outside of a traditional jujutsu structure!)

-Capoeira (especially for angles, timing, takedowns, and conditioning)

-Judo / Sambo (I have returned to gi training as an outlet for training "flexible weapons". Last week I hogtied my BJJ partner with my belt, using some basic "Hojo-jitsu", which is the Samurai art of restraining prisoners. I am starting to like the gi, for reasons just like this!)

-Conditioning, conditioning, conditioning. I've yet to find the perfect niche for me, but Kettlebells are more fun than anything else has been for a long time. I'm wondering if a mix of wrestling drills, capoeira practice, and KB lifting is just what the doctor ordered.

Anyone else? What are the elements that work for you?

38

"If your main point is that many people don't think for themselves, in a "system" that aims to have each practitioner find their OWN way--then I think many of us have agreed."

Well put, that was my main point. If the people who got offended thought I was pointing fingers at them, I don't think this was the case since I don't know who they are. Only they can judge if they are being authentic and true to the path that they profess they are taking.

39

JKD is just a name really given to a process. I know of some instructors of the arts you mentioned who could be said to have a JKD approach, but they just don't call it that.

40

thank you Shen. Yet another validation of my theory.