QUESTION: Why do no certified JKD instructors focus their self-expression on Judo, Aikido, Korean Martial Arts, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Freestyle Wrestling, Western Boxing, Wing Chun Kung Fu, any other Chinese Martial Arts systems, or Gracie Academy Jiu-jitsu?
ANSWER: Guru Dan Inosanto doesn't focus on these arts.
COMMENTARY: What ever happened to finding your own path?
Discuss.
Have you read Jerry Beasley's book? There's plenty of diversity within JKDC. In your list, only Aikido and Korean MAs aren't very well represented.
I did Judo until my knee couldn't take it anymore. I still hold it in the highest esteem and include a lot of what I learned in my JKD and submission wrestling.
Woof:
I suppose the point of the post is the belief that JKD
Concepts instructors of Inosanto lineage don't think for themselves, but FWIW lets begin by noting that:
1) Wing Chun Kung Fu IS trained by lots of JKDC people
2) Erik Paulsen is certainly well-versed in G-R Wrestling and lots of people train with him
3) Tons of people, including Guro I who is a BB is Machado BJJ, train in BJJ. Why distinguish Gracie JJ from BJJ?
4) Off the top of my head, John Spezzano, who teaches at the Inosanto Academy, is an Aikido BB.
5) Tons of people in JKDC have sound boxing skills
CD
Good point Marc. Not to mention FB, you know very well that I consider myself a JKD guy, however I love Wing Chun, and I love Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
I did not realize that John Spezzano had his BB in aikido... interesting!
sg
OK, point taken about you and the Wing Chun Mr.Grantham (just got a phone call and heard the news, congrats on the promotion!).
But besides from you and Sifu Francis, what Guru Dan instructor FOCUSES on pure Wing Chun as their primary art and trains it hard 4-5 times a week for instance. Crafty Dog: which JKDC instructors train Wing Chun this much (not just seminar exposure) and are promoting it?
Once again, Erik Pauslon has been "exposed" to GR wrestling, but that is far different from truly training it (i.e. how many years and classes of instruction has Paulson had on Greco Roman?).
When you say "lots" of JKDC people have "sound" boxing skills, how many have fought on the pro or even amatuer level?
Did John Spezzano, receive his aikido blackbelt AFTER training with Guru Dan? I could be wrong, but I'll bet dollars to donuts he did not. Does he promote aikido? Does he train aikido in a class 3-4 times a week?
Crafty Dog: I distinguish Gracie Jiu-jitsu from BJJ because Gracie Jiu-jitsu as taught at the Gracie Academy is a very different style of BJJ than Machado Jiujitsu. Why with the hundreds of instructors to train from in LA who have many different styles of BJJ have all Guru Dan instructors and affiliates seem to train Machado Jiu-jitsu?
The point is: I don't think many JKDC guys are following their own path. If they were, they wouldn't look identical to Guru Dan (same exact teachers, same exact styles, same exact focus).
"There's plenty of diversity within JKDC. In your list, only Aikido and Korean MAs aren't very well represented."
Just as one small example, please tell me the list of JKDC instructors who are actively training with Guru Dan but also actively compete (a sign of focusing on that art) in wrestling, boxing, or judo?
FB...
I think Francis Fong is/was(?) a JKDC instructor, and he certainly has some Wing Chun background.
The guys I trained JKDC (Inosanto affiliate) started training with the Gracies back in '93. Of course that was pretty much all we had access to back then. I think outside of California, back then you trained with who you could. Maybe the West-coasters trained with the Machados because Dan did?
The fellow I trained with was encouraged by Guro I to train with Khilandi (sp?), because Dan wanted to pick his brain... never happened, although a guy we trained with did some training up there (not even sure how authentic Khilandi was, but the point is Dan was encouraging him to train outside of the normal JKDC stuff).
And then there's Blaise Loong... trained in the American Indian arts and other esoteric stuff. Maybe Crafty can fill us in on some stories... ahem ;')
-Kev
Kev: see my post above ("But besides from you and Sifu Francis...") I listed him as an exception to the Wing Chun thing but still he obviously began Wing Chun far before he met Guru Dan. Name me someone who chose to focus on it after getting certified by Guru Dan.
"Maybe the West-coasters trained with the Machados because Dan did?"
That is exactly my point.
"Crafty Dog: I distinguish Gracie Jiu-jitsu from BJJ because Gracie Jiu-jitsu as taught at the Gracie Academy is a very different style of BJJ than Machado Jiujitsu. Why with the hundreds of instructors to train from in LA who have many different styles of BJJ have all Guru Dan instructors and affiliates seem to train Machado Jiu-jitsu?"
No I don't feel like committing suicide by Brazilian anytime soon-- so I think I will pass on comparing the two :-)))
Anyway, Guro I. trains in Machado BJJ because I am the one who introduced him to the Machado Brothers-- so per your logic this must mean that the JKDC world is following me. (ATTENTION: THIS IS AN EFFORT AT HUMOR)
More seriously now, I've found it to be good policy to let others speak for themselves and for me to speak for me. IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER my teachers/coaches/influential training partners since beginning with Guro Inosanto are:
-GT Leo Gaje
-PG Edgar Sulite
-Pdkr Paul De Thouars
-All of the Machado Bros (as noted, I introduced Guro I. to them i.e. I pre-date him in connection with them)
-Myung Gyi of Bando
-GM Ramiro Estalilla of Kabaroan Eskrima (to whom I also introduced Guro I.)
-Eric "Top Dog" Knaus (Pekiti Tirsia)
- Rico Chiaparelli (and Frank Trigg with a dash of Vladymir Matyushenko)
-Gabe Suarez
-Southnark
-Tony Felix of Wali Longo Silat
-Chris Gizzi (recently of the Green Bay Packers)
- and some people who shall remain nameless , , ,
Plenty are via the Inosanto connection, but the majority of names there (6 out of 10 if we count the Machados as 1 and count Rico/Frank/Vlady as one) are not.
yip,
CD
Crafty Dog: Right, but you are the quinessential case in that your main art of Kali is Guru Dan's main focus as well. Nothing wrong with that, in your case I really do believe you were following your PASSION, but how come no one else decides to open a JKDC school, with lets, say, judo, or wrestling or western boxing as the major focus?
""Maybe the West-coasters trained with the Machados because Dan did?"
That is exactly my point."
Yeah... I was agreeing with you.
Wrestling: Mr. Larry Hartsell
Wing Chun: Mr. Joe Cowles
Boxing: Mr. Richard Bustillo (plus Muay Thai, of course)
Hartsell didn't begin wrestling after meeting Guru Dan, nor does he promote it.
I don't konw who Joe Cowles is.
What is Richard Bustillo's boxing background? (Pro/amateur record please). When are boxing classes offered at his academy?
I think I see your point that some people in the JKDC community follow Guro Dan simply to follow him. That is unfortunate, but there are a lot of us who don't. I'm an apprentice instructor under Guro Dan. I train primarily JKD. I boxed at the amateur level briefly and trained at pro/am gym (albeit mostly on the am side of things, their were two steady pros and a larger population of transient pros who wanted to work with people outside of their regular gym.) I have a blue belt in Judo and in BJJ under Marcello Fereirra. I also fenced when I was in college. My point is similar to Crafty's in that there is more variety in training among the JKDC/Inosanto students. However, the fact that a lot of us were introduced to arts by Guro Dan probably accounts for why so many of us train with some instructors.
It's like a college education. How many people use different textbooks from the recommended readings? While noone's forcing you to use them, it's easier to pass the exam if you use them and after you graduate those texts are the ones you're familiar with.
It doesn't mean you can't "think independently", but more that what you learn is the foundation for your future research.
"recommended readings"
The thing is, are they recommended, or are they required? What if someone began under Guru Dan but then they found their own personal expression of JKD to be a combination of Gracie Jiujitsu, Judo, and Aikido and those were the only arts they practiced?
FB wrote:
"Crafty Dog: Right, but you are the quinessential case in that your main art of Kali is Guru Dan's main focus as well. Nothing wrong with that, in your case I really do believe you were following your PASSION, but how come no one else decides to open a JKDC school, with lets, say, judo, or wrestling or western boxing as the major focus?"
Umm, maybe they have, but know the name JKDC does not appeal to people attracted to those arts and therefore do not fuss over the name but let it go? How would you know if this were the case? Why would a person focusing on the Arts you name WANT to use the term JKDC?
I know "I" made a very clear choice to avoid the term even though I proudly consider myself to be JKDC. I use the name from time to time only to acknowledge and give credit to Guro I. and his teachings-- but for me it is irrelevant. I have my vision and to follow it is my Adventure.
The rest is words.
CD
Interesting discussion.
I suppose I come down somewhere in the middle. That is, certain arts are underrepresented because people have tried them and found them nonfunctional. Other arts are either under- or overrepresented because Dan Inosanto does not or does train in them.
Dan is a very charismatic person and teacher. People trust him and follow his lead. Whether they do so mindfully or not is really an individual question. (For the record, I am not trying to be disrespectful here. I currently call all of my teachers by their first names.)
On the other hand, from personal experience, I can say that just about everyone knew about BJJ when I was at the Inosanto Academy, but (relatively) very few people were actively training. Dan began training after I left for Boston, and soon very many people followed his lead. IMHO, many of them would not have done so had Dan told them that Shooto and Silat were all they needed for grappling. This is neither a promotion of BJJ--which I did and liked while at the Inosanto Academy and before Dan--nor is it a swipe at Shooto and Silat--which I also did at the Inosanto Academy but did not find so enjoyable. Rather it is a personal opinion about why certain individuals practice the arts they do.
It bothers me a little, in a visceral sense. But I think the behavior is rather normal/common, and can be found in places like universities as well where a famous and charismatic teacher can influence the direction of an entire generation of students.
John
I suppose I fall into this category with Silat. I really did not care for it until I experienced it with Guro Inosanto. This is probably in part because I had minimal exposure to start with, but I can probably say that I wouldn't do Silat had it not been for Guro Inosanto (beyond the fact that many of us would not have heard of it without Guro I.) Now this has less to do with me trying to fit-in with the Inosanto group as it does with the way that Guro Inosanto presents the material. Frankly, I prefer how he presents Silat much more than the way others do. It's not the most mature or well educated opinion, but as of this writing it is the one I have. The Majapahit curriculum is the most easily understood and personally practical of the silat systems that I have been exposed to. Likewise the training is much more palatable probably due to my background in boxing, JKD, etc. More traditional approaches to silat are not as enjoyable and are more difficult for me to understand within a fighting context. Guro Inosanto's presentation of various arts just fits my needs better than some other teachers. This may account for the seemingly cliquish following that this thread addresses, but some I'm sure is simply hero worship.