He has a good point. He really has nothing to prove and the purse is very low. It is not like some pro fighters that want some air time to move up on UFC cards. He's already been at the apex of his sport so it is all about the cheese. 10k is chicken feed when you consider the marketing opportunities that exist for the organizer.
I may take the idea and pay him what he is worth if it does not happen in Atlanta.
Jspiceman - I hope you aren't just talking smack, but by calling the largest purse in jiu jitsu history "low" and "chicken feed" I can probably easily assume that you are just talking out of your ass. That said, I hope I'm wrong and that you really do it! There is a reason a purse like this has never been offered --- because no one has ever found a profitable way to do it. Since it has never been done before, there is absolutely no model to base your conclusion on, but I hope you do it, and further ... I hope you make a fortune doing so!
asscobra -Tomato Can - It would bring in a small fortune? I dunno about that. People involved in BJJ tend to forget what a niche sport it is.I said, "If marketed properly, this could bring in a small fortune". 5 bucks for a web stream, DVD sales, charge of admission, merchandising, sponsorships etc. By small fortune I mean a couple hundred Gs.
I doubt it. I mean, ADCC 2007 in NJ sold like 1000 tickets. You can sell web streams and DVDs as well but it's hardly guaranteed success, you have to spend money to get that stuff produced and the market you're trying to reach is tiny.
I think you'd be shocked at how little money there would be in this. Only the most diehard fans would even know about it. Your average 2x per week BJJ enthusiast probably doesn't even know who Cobrinha or Mendes are.
I would want more than just one fight for the event. If Cobrinha and Mendes got a split of 10k for winner and 5k for loser, that may make Mendes do the deal. What other "pro" fighters could be brought into the fight for a smaller purse. If the total purse was 22k, about 1,100 tickets would need to be sold for the event to break even. I'm not sure if any city could pack in 1,100 people to watch Jiu-jitsu superfights.
That means the the profit would need to come from DVD sales, sponsorships.....
What other fights would be worth watching as the undercard?
Tomato Can -asscobra -Tomato Can - It would bring in a small fortune? I dunno about that. People involved in BJJ tend to forget what a niche sport it is.I said, "If marketed properly, this could bring in a small fortune". 5 bucks for a web stream, DVD sales, charge of admission, merchandising, sponsorships etc. By small fortune I mean a couple hundred Gs.
I doubt it. I mean, ADCC 2007 in NJ sold like 1000 tickets. You can sell web streams and DVDs as well but it's hardly guaranteed success, you have to spend money to get that stuff produced and the market you're trying to reach is tiny.
I think you'd be shocked at how little money there would be in this. Only the most diehard fans would even know about it. Your average 2x per week BJJ enthusiast probably doesn't even know who Cobrinha or Mendes are.
THIS
ADCC 2007 in Trenton and 2009 in Barcelona had really tiny crowds. 2005 in LA was pretty packed tho.
Jspiceman- Rickson's budo challenge, the Pro Sub Grappling challenges, etc, all had huge grappling names involved....and I am assuming all of them did not turn a profit or we would see move of these events.
This isn't including the ADCC, which probably doesn't earn any money either.
So how different would your event be compared to all of these?
I love bjj and submissions grappling. Unforunately, it seems like the only way to earn money from tournaments, is to promote them and get the $$ from the competitors- ie. NAGA, Grapplers Quest, etc- not from holding pro tournaments and earning $$ from specatators.
Jspiceman -
What other fights would be worth watching as the undercard?
Or even a main card?
Rafa is not being unreasonable at all. That's ridiculous to even ask the loser to take home nothing. He doesn't need to fight for pride, hes competed his whole life. It is a great idea, but no one should have to fight under unreasonable terms.
ezubik - Rafa is not being unreasonable at all. That's ridiculous to even ask the loser to take home nothing. He doesn't need to fight for pride, hes competed his whole life. It is a great idea, but no one should have to fight under unreasonable terms.
Did you bother to read the thread? In his response, he doesn't ask for guaranteed money, he asks for a higher purse.
ezubik - Rafa is not being unreasonable at all. That's ridiculous to even ask the loser to take home nothing. He doesn't need to fight for pride, hes competed his whole life. It is a great idea, but no one should have to fight under unreasonable terms.
I don't think anyone has suggested he is being unreasonable. Also, nothing is ridiculous to ask. No one says they have to agree (although it appears many of us hope they will). Mendes responded it wasn't enough money, and that's fine. It would be awesome if he would say how much is enough though.
LOL @ thinking $10,000 isn't enough for a single grappling match.
Soul Gravy - LOL @ thinking $10,000 isn't enough for a single grappling match.
I understand why you would think this Gravy, but what about this being their entire career. Both of these guys have fond themselves in a unique situation - us wanting a rematch to the finish - and Rafa does not want to throw it away for 10k. If he loses, his career could suffer well beyond the 10k upside of winning the match.
"throw it away for 10k"
reread that
Jspiceman -
If he loses, his career could suffer well beyond the 10k upside of winning the match.
Uh, no. Mendes is only 21 and already a world champ and about as highly regarded as you can be in the BJJ community. Losing a match against maybe the GOAT in his weight class is going to destroy his career? Give me a break.
This:
"From: Kneeblock
The Worlds, European and Brasileiro pay exactly $0. Rafa and Lemos's rationales are flawed."
is the truth.
Jspiceman -Soul Gravy - LOL @ thinking $10,000 isn't enough for a single grappling match.
I understand why you would think this Gravy, but what about this being their entire career. Both of these guys have fond themselves in a unique situation - us wanting a rematch to the finish - and Rafa does not want to throw it away for 10k. If he loses, his career could suffer well beyond the 10k upside of winning the match.
Mendes puts his career on the line, in a manner of speaking, as well as interferes with his seminar schedule (and thus his income) every time he competes. Here is an opportunity to make $10,000 for a single match against a known opponent (no chance of losing to some unknown in a tournament). How is it he finds time to train for competitions that don't pay anything at all, and yet when offered a bout with a purse, declares that the purse isn't high enough? It's obvious he's using money as an excuse to avoid the match with Cobrinha.
Serious hypothetical question: Say this match somehow happens. Would any of you view the loser of the match in any different light than you currently do (assuming a fair match, no unsportsmanlike stuff, etc.)? Would you choose to not go to that fighter's seminar after that? Would you not still consider both of them "the best"?
I guess what I am getting at is both of these guys are so darn good, it just doesn't get any better. I really don't care which one wins or is conisidered better than the other -- I just want to see these 2 super high level guys compete in a manner that does not allow fighting for points or usuing a timeclock as strategy.
Soul Gravy - Mendes puts his career on the line, in a manner of speaking, as well as interferes with his seminar schedule (and thus his income) every time he competes. Here is an opportunity to make $10,000 for a single match against a known opponent (no chance of losing to some unknown in a tournament). How is it he finds time to train for competitions that don't pay anything at all, and yet when offered a bout with a purse, declares that the purse isn't high enough? It's obvious he's using money as an excuse to avoid the match with Cobrinha.
Um, I wouldn't say he "puts his career on the line" everytime he competes. In the normal run of things most top competitors fight in 3-5 comps per year. Euros, Pans, Brazilian Nationals, Mundials, and in the last year, the ADCC Pro. Competitors will schedule their training regimes based on that timetable. You can see that to a certain extent in Felipe Costa's videos when he's planning his return to comps after injury. Once that comp "season" is out of the way, athletes can then go back to teaching and doing seminars, which are the things that bring in the money. The introduction of an extra competition (or in this case a superfight) that isn't part of that regular planned comp schedule is always going to interfere with the "off season" of any competitor, Cobrinha included.
So the question on both sides is one of is the financial reward of the superfight worth the the potential loss of earnings from teaching, seminars etc. So far it seems that for Rafael it isn't...
James
PS: In case anyone thinks I'm an Atos fan or something, if it does go down, I hope Cobrinha wrecks him Terere style with some real beautiful open and flowing jiu-jitsu.
Sir Taps -
Um, I wouldn't say he "puts his career on the line" everytime he competes. In the normal run of things most top competitors fight in 3-5 comps per year. Euros, Pans, Brazilian Nationals, Mundials, and in the last year, the ADCC Pro. Competitors will schedule their training regimes based on that timetable. You can see that to a certain extent in Felipe Costa's videos when he's planning his return to comps after injury. Once that comp "season" is out of the way, athletes can then go back to teaching and doing seminars, which are the things that bring in the money. The introduction of an extra competition (or in this case a superfight) that isn't part of that regular planned comp schedule is always going to interfere with the "off season" of any competitor, Cobrinha included.
So the question on both sides is one of is the financial reward of the superfight worth the the potential loss of earnings from teaching, seminars etc. So far it seems that for Rafael it isn't...
James
PS: In case anyone thinks I'm an Atos fan or something, if it does go down, I hope Cobrinha wrecks him Terere style with some real beautiful open and flowing jiu-jitsu.
James,
My choice of words when I said Mendes "puts his career on the line" when he competes was in reference to some people's belief that Mendes could damage his career or legacy if he lost to Cobrinha in this match. I fail to see how losing this match could affect his career any more than losing to Cobrinha in any other tournament, or worse, losing to some unknown person. So there goes that argument.
I understand what you're saying about tournament scheduling, but still--he's willing to take time away from seminars to compete in tournaments where no prize money is involved, yet claims when he is offered a sum that it's not enough. If he's that concerned with money, perhaps he should forego one of the non-paying tournaments and accept this match?