It’s pretty obvious you didn’t go to the class but got a bad recitation of the curriculum by someone with a poor understanding of the fundamentals of Jiu Jitsu.
I don’t agree with a lot of the tactics but I do know that your assertion that they don’t talk about how to get to or maintain the mount is not founded in any degree of firsthand experience with the actual curriculum. It’s a foundational curriculum for beginners.
My buddy is convinced the Masters 3 (40-45) black belt division is the epitome of BJJ. Been training long enough to know how to do everything (old school to new school) can still move good enough and possess MOST of the attributes to pull them off, but default to basic BJJ after decades of experience. I tend to agree. It’s what BJJ should look like.
It’s terrible but as I said, I don’t agree with some of the tactics.
Tell your instructors whatever you want. I’ve been training bjj for close to 20 years and teaching cops defensive tactics for close to 15. I’ve been through the GST classes (I & II) as well as the EFC and a few other local courses. I helped develop a curriculum for my agency and two POST academies. We use some GST and some stuff we think we have better options for.
I think it’s very possible that your agency instructors are not teaching the most important fundamentals of the program and that could be a lack of experience. It’s not uncommon that only portions of the program are taught due to time constraints. But actually the clinch/ body fold takedown and mount controls are one of the primary staples of the program. I don’t think the program is a joke. I like some of it, some of it is not as good as some other tactics. I’ve never seen an arrest control system, and I’ve seen a lot of them, that didn’t have a lot of curriculum I hated. It’s wise to test and evaluate all tactics and tailor a program to the needs of the deputies, or officers that will be learning the program. I’m not a die hard Gracie fan. I don’t show up on the last day to buy their Gracie merch or even train at a Gracie school. But I recognize that their training methodology (which is different than their tactics or technique selection) is actually very outstanding if it’s followed as recommended.
I actually think most of the content taught by Chad Lyman and Jay Wadsworth, just to name two, have the best content related to bjj for cops. A lot of their tactics are better than GST. But I give credit where it’s due. The thing that makes GST solid is the way they present information in a very particular way. They have really mapped the program out very masterfully. The way they map out particular techniques and concepts that build in one another is smart. Breaking it into what they call ‘slices’ is also wise. The very particular method they they prescribe for detailing, explaining and demonstrating techniques minimizes the opportunity for most common errors to occur. I also recommend that street cops adopt the principle in the program of establishing control and exhausting suspects via control and pressure prior to turning them onto their belly. It makes a lot of sense when it’s taught properly and as far as I can tell, they are the only program that emphasizes this principle to that level.
“positions like worm guard, if you invert every single time you roll, if you rush to pull guard before your opponent, if you’ve never considered what would happen if your opponent was punching you as you performed a technique, you’re probably sport-only BJJ. To contrast, self-defense BJJ would be spending that time training double legs, passing to half guard, side control, or full mount, and dropping elbows on someone’s face. It’s not bear hug escapes and standing front choke defenses. It’s essentially BJJ in an MMA/NHB environment.”
This is just wrong.
The GJJ people that come in tell me it’s all about escapes from headlocks,
And what good is training double legs if you don’t actually wrestle?
They’d never once started matches standing in training,
Sport bjj guys have enormously better wrestling than self defense types.
Gracie self defense stuff I’ve seen is ever further from mma than than modern sport.
Much further,
I agree worm guard isn’t very practical for self defense but it’s the hours actually rolling that gives you the attributes for a real fight. The toughness, durability, cardio, staying relaxed under stress.
Self defense types seem to not even roll these days
A woman visited my gym who trained at the local rener schools and she’s never once actually rolled. We talked at length and she showed me headlock defenses and stuff like that but she was just way too soft to defend herself from a middle school boy.
I grew up doing karate (kenpo) and am a 3rd degree blackbelt and it was 100% useless for me in every fight I ever had whether in the cage or street,
I knew almost all the stuff she was showing me from kenpo.
Sure sport bjj is not mma,
Mma is better in a street fight,
But I’d still say for self defense for a woman u can’t beat sport bjj.
A man trying to rape a bjj competition champ gets choked out.
I doubt her even notice is she had self defense anti rape training.
Knowing techniques is useless if you’re not used to getting ragdolled by a stronger person, and being completely exhausted but having the will to fight on.
Those attributes are best developed in sports.
Football and hockey players and tougher than those that do self defense martial arts.
Sport > art
I can agree as an artist but it really doesn’t matter what I or anyone else says when you guys are right now making $1 million to win a grappling tournament. So who cares what some martial arts stylists think.
I totally get that. If you just want to do the style in a certain way like the Gracie way more power to you, do it that way. Don’t think it makes you bulletproof in a fight. I don’t believe they push that anyway. Most their clientele are affluent people. They’re not fighting for the most part.
That being said, they also had no position to take shots at BJJ guys making a million dollars in one night grappling… When it comes to sports and money real money enters the room. No one cares anymore. They’re just doing what works for them as everyone should
Couldn’t agree more. When I’m teaching gi bjj we drill takedowns as a warmup every class. And often it’s slipping under punches to get takedowns. On the rare occasion someone says something like “I don’t do mma class, I only want bjj so can we not drill takedowns vs strikes.”
I say
“takedowns vs strikes is more bjj that takedowns in sport.”
Tho I’m sure they have no idea what I’m talking about.
But my school is more mma than bjj so I get that many schools don’t do this.
I’d say “mma is what self defense bjj should be” with the exception of for women.
Women who don’t wanna be raped should train strikes sure but I’d say they should do 90% guard and in modern mms half of bottom game is getting up
Women really should focus on that imo. More old school triangle and armbars n crap.
Few women can do much damage to men with strikes. Don’t think working your way up is much of an option when you are getting raped.
And not many rapists will know how to defend subs from in the guard
“Classical Gracie JJ” & “pure sport JJ” are kinda the extremes.
Both exist, of course, but I think the majority of BJJ that I’ve encountered is not either one of them.
There’s a lot of schools that do BJJ in a lot of different ways. Jiu Jitsu is not a binary.
There are plenty of people, like me, who teach “self-defense” oriented BJJ that is not classical GJJ. We do takedowns, deal w/ strikes and teach self-defense techniques, but probably no more than 40% of it is recognizable as “classical” Gracie jiu jitsu. We’re NOT a sport oriented school either, yet we have students who compete.
I think it’s pretty common for schools to have either a primary MMA, self-defense or sport focus, yet also practice other things too.
This is so funnie because I just also had very similar thoughts. The style at adult Worlds is so different. A stark contrast to the origins of bjj, I’d say, or at a masters division.
I kind of wonder if there is a lot of “artificial” BJJ that gets to stick around, so to speak, because there are weight class world champions. In most sports, there is only a single “open class”. For example, in basketball I wonder if you would see wildly different styles if there were height classes - basketball done by people only under 5’9", for example. But at the highest levels. You would probably see a totally different type of basketball than the NBA.
Maybe that’s what we are witnessing in BJJ - you get to see what the tip of the spear looks like amongst 140 lbs. Amongst 155 lbs. etc. If there was only a single no weight limit open division to determine the truly absolute best of the best - I’m guessing the highest levels of BJJ as we actually be distilled a more familiar style of Jiu Jitsu - the jiu jitsu the heavier, stronger, but noticeably slower guys do.
Yeah, certainly in all combat sports, the “style” of play changes so much as you go up in weight classes. Compared to the lowest weight classes there tends to be less variation; basically fewer techniques and fewer strategies are used, the higher up you go.
As the strength-to-weight ratio changes, technique changes.
Early mma showed bjj works, wrestling boxing judo…
SPORTS work.
You we put a college decathlete who has no training in fighting vs the average self defense teacher I pick the decathlete all day.
The average college hockey or basketball player just has a massive toughness and cardio advantage over non sport based fighters.
Sure punches from mount is more crucial in a real fight than a berimbolo but the guys training for sport will always have a massive advantage over those training for self defense.
Sports make athletes.
Art makes artists.
Who wins a street fight…
A young Bo Jackson or Salvador Dali in his prime?
Adam wardinski the polish heavy weight has an awesome old school game.
Love watching him implement his game.
He just won the world’s after grinding for many years
Having some experience with EFC, I get the impression that the mindset for self-defense is radically different for civilians. Specifically, EFC prioritizes mobility as civilian, so “knee on top” is greatly preferred to mount. Similarly, taking the back and putting both hooks in also appears to be discouraged as it limits mobility.
Of course, the circumstances dictate a lot, but emphasis of being able to disengage and run if you are a civilian is probably not a mindset that most bjj’ers, even bjj’ers that are all about self-defense have.
As an aside, the EFC creators/founders were on the Cleared Hot podcast not too long ago.
I agree with your observations. I really like EFC and I like GST. I even like some (although not most) of the Krav Maga Worldwide law enforcement curriculum. We tried to take what we liked and what works for our environment and toss the rest. Straight arm bar from mount as a cop? Trash.
There is definitely an emphasis in their system to maintaining mobility and being able to disengage for law enforcement officers. I like that a lot. It makes sense in many circumstances. GST is heavy on emphasizing a solid mount, deep hooks on top, pressure, control and a planned, coordinated turn to cuffing. The preferred position is mount vs back control in order to exhaust the suspect and slow the arrest process. I like that too but it can be hard to make those two concepts co-mingle. I teach it as options. Maybe I am in a controlled environment and a half naked guy guy came out of a 7-11 bathroom stall and tried to fight me. I don’t have to worry about his friends, because I have a partner posted at the door. I don’t have to worry about him pulling a concealed weapon, mount control is awesome for me. But if I start fighting with a guy outside of the college football stadium and it’s a very busy, open environment, head control, (posting on the head) knee on belly and the ability to disengage is very important.
Your approach makes complete sense to me, but I strongly suspect that it’s not the same approach of GU or other bjj-based self-defense programs. Which is one of disconnects I have with the whole “street vs sport” discussion (the first one is what is meant by “street”, but a close second is not the techniques, but the strategy/tactics). Yes, we know getting the back and putting both hooks in is in very effective for control and finishing, but it might not be a good idea when fighting a guy outside a college football stadium.
Another issue that concerns me is how few self-defense classes for civilians ignore everything that happens after the fight. How should you call 911? What do you say? What do you say/do when law enforcement arrives? etc…
I send some time talking about back mount vs mount to cops. I ask which is more advantageous to a police officer? In MMA you can punch the side of the head, or choke, but police officers can’t do either of those things in most circumstances. Allowing the person to turtle gives them the opportunity to access their waistband or build up to their feet. Most people can’t wrestle. It’s a big energy expenditure to allow someone back up and then try to wrestle them back down again. It’s also dangerous because they can grab the officer’s weaponry. I really like a few of the simple options like the gift wrap (twisting arm control) or topside kimura to a prone control.
You are right about after action too. If you watch a shooting video on YouTube you can easily identify the teams who train after action protocols, especially in a force on force training and those who don’t. It will definitely build a training scar to only have guys on a flat range, have them fire two rounds and hostler over and over. They have to have exposure to integrating between shooting, making a contact team and providing after action. By statute, cops have to provide medical aid after they shoot someone. So training them to actually do it through on-going practice reps is a no-brainer. As a private citizen, I think it’s smart to call the police and then your attorney.